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1.9 tdi pump ?

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Coprophagous Cretin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tee3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 09 at 21:14
I'll second that on Andrews, I went for a ride yesterday in the "tuned down" version and its bloomin quick! I can only imagine what it was like in "balls out smokey monster" mode



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baxter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 09 at 21:34
It was stupid quick! Funny as fuck! But not a recipe for
Longevity! Hence stipulating boost and EGT gauges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iceworx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 09 at 10:57
Any idea or indication of if the engine lid will need cutting with these pumps on the 1Z , like the AAZ does?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baxter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 09 at 12:22
Yes, they do.
Not an issue though, my lid kits make the job nice and tidy, safe and easy to fit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monkey magic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 09 at 00:35
Originally posted by Full Throttle Full Throttle wrote:

It seems strange to me that lots of people want a mech pump when the cost of these pumps is excessive. You also have the problem of costs when it fails.


surely when an electronic TDI pump fails it costs too?

personally I couldnt go with an electronics set up, i need my van to be reliable Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Full Throttle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 09 at 14:02

The pro's and con's of both systems has been argued many times.

If your pump fails which system is more likely to be up and running faster that the other. Wink
No big deal until you are abroad and the worst happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monkey magic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 09 at 21:50
The mtdi will not only be less likely to let you down in the first place, but if it did, mtdi would most likely be faster to get up and running.

The pure mechanical pump set up has less to go wrong. An electronically controlled pump has all the same mechanical components, and therefore has the potential to suffer all the same problems, but with  extra electro-mechanical pieces in the loop, it has so many extra potential show stoppers. Thats before you even factor in the sensors and the ecu itself.

I genuinely, 100% seriously, went the route of an mtdi for reliability, from where im stood its a no brainer.


edit:
Wink


Edited by monkey magic - 13 Nov 09 at 21:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Full Throttle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 09 at 22:32
Both pumps are reliable.
We are talking about when they fail, especially if your abroad.
Electronic pump is standard and a standard job to change.
Mtdi not standard.
 
99% of the time nothing ever happens, but when it does your going to have to explain what has been done to your pump or hope the mechanic understands what he's looking at.
 
How many variants of an mtdi pump are there, which one is in your van. ?
Fine if you built it, but a nightmare if you bought a van with one already in it and you know nothing about pumps like most of us do.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monsho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 08:32
All sensible arguments, with mine its a pump off the shelf with a few adjustments made by Mr Baxter which are all recorded down, could fairly easily swap it out...

But in all fairness, its a brand new pump which isn't heavily modified and under strain and will do about 5000 miles a year, I really don't expect it to go wrong (famous last words!).  Same with rest of the setup, its all mainly off the shelf and new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monkey magic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 10:51
@ full throttle:

Sorry fella, I disagree with a passion.

How many variants? Good question. Loads is the answer, so when it breaks down, pick one and fit it. I have a landy 200 pump. Nowt stopping me swapping it out for a landy 300, a VW LT one, JX, AAZ, renau!t pumps, p£ugeot pumps, ford pumps. etc etc. All of these will get me back on the road. The key part of mtdi conversions is not getting them running, its getting them running at their best. Think of dozens of different pump options as a 'limp mode', that will get you home.

Full leccy TDI? " no, needs to match the ECU, sorry, got one on the shelf, but its the wrong year and wont work" Need to get you a new one (£1000's) or wait for a second hand one to come up (weeks?).

So I also am talking about when you break down too. As I said in my above post, not only is mtdi far less likely to let you down in the first place, but is far more likely to be up and running quicker and cheaper.

Full leccy tdi  is "standard" you say? The mechanic will be nervous at the fact that you have put a golf engine into a T3 anyway, he doesn't give a 2 shakes of a dogs cock that "its wired up properly mate", in his eyes it doesnt belong in that van.

He would be less freaked out looking at an mtdi pump, as at least he knows where he stands with it. Its a simple mechanical pump, just like the JX pump he thought it had before you gave him the 'good news' about the tdi conversion.

As you said yourself, it is simply a case of needing to explain what has been done. "Its had a landy pump fitted mate". There, I explained it. If you can't discuss your conversion a little with any mechanic that ever has to work on it, then you have no right driving a T3 with a custom engine set up. You have to be, to a point, your own mechanic. If you bought a converted one, you have a duty to yourself to research it, so you DO have the info you need in worst case scenario. This is the same whether tdi OR mtdi. Anybody abroad in this situation with no idea what to tell the garage, is a fool, and as such doesnt need to rely on anything to get himself into trouble, as he will achieve it regardless.

Breakdown abroad with an internal mechanical pump problem, then tdi OR mtdi, the pump is going to a diesel injection tech. Simple as. No garage deals with stuff like that. It really doesnt matter what the pump came off. He will instantly recognise it, and refer to the number on it for the settings and tolerances, etc, fix it and hand your mechanic back a working pump. He need not know its on a crazy conversion. Mechanic bolts it on, times it up, and you're away, without a laptop in sight.

If I ever breakdown abroad with a pump problem, my thoughts will be "thank fuck I've got a simple mechanical unit", not "bugger, wish my installation was laced with electronics to make this more specialised, complicated and expensive".

As a case in point, didn't the guys who took their syncros to morroco, have mtdi pumps?? And didn't they do this for absolute reliability?

Sorry for the big arse post, but I didn't go mtdi for fun, I did it for 2 key reasons, and one of those was to achieve out and out reliability, for travelling abroad with confidence and minimum hassle, so I feel I have to argue the case.

much love, MM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russel at syncronutz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 12:30
I have built and used may of bothe setups. mTDI is good but definetly not as refined as electronic. I use mosty mTDI's because with syncros water in the electronics is always a concern but have had 2 elecronic syncros in the past with no hasles at all.
The electronic setup in the cars is very very reliable and if fitted to a van correctly is the same.
As a DIY setup in the drive a mTDI is definetly the easiest way.
On a 2WD electronic all the way.
All these comment i have made apply to using a 110bhp wouldnt bother with the electronics on a 90bhp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ..lee.. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 12:31
mm i`d tend to side with you with regards to reliability and looks like i`m going tdi soon so these discussions are vital reading for me.
 
are the mtdi pumps a compramise in any other department ie power reliability smoke. i`m thinking the tdi was a big step up in std form over the aaz and its partly down to the electrics so what was vw`s thinking when they could have run a mtdi.
 
cheers lee.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ..lee.. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 12:40
whats the differance with the 110`s and 90`s is it just electronics and can a 90 be chipped to a 110 easilly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monkey magic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 14:25
For the record I will agree that electronic setups done properly will be VERY reliable. I am spliting hairs above, but would still prefer to breakdown with a mech unit than elec, for the reasons I stated above.

Originally posted by ..lee.. ..lee.. wrote:

so what was vw`s thinking when they could have run a mtdi.

 cheers lee.


edit: the key difference between AAZ and 1z/ahu etc is that the TDIs are direct injection, this is where the benefits came from, and having a mech pump doesnt change this. Discovering that I could run a tdi with a mech pump made me very quickly give up on the idea of doing an AAZ conversion, instead going AHU based mTDI route.


they had to shoot, as ever, for better efficiency and ever tightening emmisions standards, which is easier and cheaper to achieve with electronic control. For reference, VW had to drop PD TDI technology and finally buy into common rail, as they hit a wall with PD on emmisions. Ironic, as PD can be EXTREMELY reliable, and common rail is known for not lasting very long without issues.

Downsides of mTDI:

An mtdi will always be louder, due to lack of refinement in control over fuelling. It is also fair to say that, with a built in immobiliser a leccy TDI it will be more secure out of the box.

Main set back with mtdi is cost. If you want a reliable pump that works well, you need to wait and see how much Baxter is going to offer them for. Other realistic option is to get Giles in Canada to build you one. Expensive, but not unreasonable considering you get a 'better than new' pump at whatever level of tuning/smoke/power you want. In comparison, chipping tdi's is never cheap, and few can guarantee no smoke and a happy engine, etc.

If I wanted to dick around with ECU based units, I wouldn't touch 1Z's, AHU etc, I would save up and go PD TDI 150...


Edited by monkey magic - 15 Nov 09 at 14:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baxter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 20:29
Most of the above seconded.
 
The mTDI pump we have used on Andrews still has it's aprt numbers on, if it breaks it can get fixed at any Diesel specialist, apart from the throttle levers, the bracketry, and a couple of simple internal mods it's a stock pump.
Even if the Diesel place rebuilt it by the book it would still perform.
If your going to put a 1Z in, mTDI, but if it was a AFN then electronic.
 
Your never going to get as an efficient control over one of these engines as you are with the EDC pump, never going to be as quiet, as smoke free or as economical but you won't be far behind.
 
Most of the time people put an engine in through necessity, TDIs are plentiful, and now, with mTDI they don't have to cost a fortune.
 
I've not done enough to just sell someone a pump and for it to work, really we should take Andrews pump back off and get it on the test bench and reverse engineer a test plan for it, so then it can be easily replicated in the future, only then would I sell one on.
I feel thats why the imported off the shelf pumps are so expensive, because all this messing about has been done, and when they are sold they have been -re set up on the bench ready for you to fit, or at least i would hope so.
Andrews pump is overkill I feel, it works but it is capable of serious power, like silly amounts, we have had to wind the fuel off considerably and do a fair bit of trial and error testing to get the timing/LDA and fuel screw set so that we have a reasonable amount of power, little if any smoke and more importantly EGT's that are condusive of longevity.
I will do them for others, but like I said I want to fit the engine, I want to fit the charge cooler, it much have boost and EGT gauges and I want a day to mess about with it to get it right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baxter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 20:30
Cost? about a grand I reckon, for the pump alone and the rake of other bits you have to buy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beelzibus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 09 at 22:54
I have for sale a 1Z pump, complete harness, ECU, transponder, Ignition barrel and throttle pedal potentiometer. If anyone is interested.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 09 at 06:26
"An mtdi will always be louder, due to lack of refinement in control over fuelling."                        Part of my program of messing, and due to bad weather, has left the test bed caddy and its aef with a disco pump and tdi turbo (and 130 injectors) and via a straight thru.  Engine and exhaust are deafening.  Is this due to lack of refinenent? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 10 at 19:46
OK I have been reading all your post's and am well lost LOL. I have fitted a TDI engine to my boat on a OMC leg I went down this road thinking it is easy to replace the engine as a common used engine.
I got the engine out of a 1.9TDI Golf complete with wireing and ECU the engine run's noproblem at all and has been in the boat for over a year with no water problems at all.
But I do have a problem getting any power out of it I have been trying to get into the ECU via Lap top and a KWP2000 chip tunning tool but keep hitting a wall it see's the ECU but will not read it ???
Has any one got any idea's ?? I think I have fallen into a bit of a trap as the pump did not come with the engine it was from another car at the time did not think it made a diffrence but after reading your post's it seems you can not just swap pump's is this right ???
 
Any help would be very welcome
There must be a better way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote famous phil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 10 at 11:56
Originally posted by iow iow wrote:

But I do have a problem getting any power out of it I have been trying to get into the ECU via Lap top and a KWP2000 chip tunning tool but keep hitting a wall it see's the ECU but will not read it ???

Has any one got any idea's ?? I think I have fallen into a bit of a trap as the pump did not come with the engine it was from another car at the time did not think it made a diffrence but after reading your post's it seems you can not just swap pump's is this right ???

 

Any help would be very welcome



Hi, I'd have thought if you could find a forklift truck breaker you might be able to use an ECU from one that uses the TDi engine , would think it would be similar to the one fitted when the TDi engines are fitted into boats+industrial applications .

As for break downs due to pump failure a lot of the time its just down to failure of the internal lift pump which is a cheap part to replace and not many variations ,

What a lot of people overlook and don't understand with the mechanically operated pumps , look at the ro-ver 25/disco 300 auto/je-ep/ to name a few- say for instance ( due to emissions ) on the 1/8/97 at twelve pm the production line changed pumps to ECU control ,
Now if you have one of the above vehicles that was built the morning of 1/8/97 and the engine fails you can replace the engine with one built on the afternoon ( identical barring some sensors ) and use the pump from the failed engine ( even though there's a minority of folk that think you should not )

some people say vw didn't build a tdi with a mechanical pump and then change to ECU controlled- but other manufacturers did   

Edited by famous phil - 20 Jun 10 at 15:28
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