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Aagghh, can't decide ABF or EJ25

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Yardie
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    Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 22:47
Ok,so on reading lots of advice here I'm torn between cheap and reliable 2.0 16v ABF from a MK3 GTi or less reliable, more expensive but more powerful, torquier, nice sounding EJ25 Subaru 2.5 lump.
 
The indecision began after I bought a potential donor MK3 Golf which is basically way too good to break. It is totally sorted inside, out and underneath. Got it for a bargain and now want/need to trade down to a scrappier example much as I like it and it's ridiculous custom exhaust.
 
But with the value tied up in it I'm back into the RJES conversion ball park.
 
It will be going into a 1.6D Doka en route from Germany and I want to be able to tow a car/furniture trailer to and from Eastern Europe where we have a house.
 
So from CGTi I can see that the ABF lump is good for 180 bhp without too much hassle but the 2.5 scoob engine although susceptible to HGF is around 165bhp as standard and presumably has better torque. Can it be tuned much higher?
 
Is this the case? Presumably the Subaru lump has better MPG too as it revs less (no need to post results though as there is loads about on the forum in this area) and would be a better cruiser and tower. But if this isn't a huge difference, I'm left with little other than the wonderful boxer sound to justify the extra expense of conversion. I know about the EJ22 being more reliable but it's 15bhp behind the ABF unit from the off so doesn't seem to make sense unless I go turbo. Maybe I should not discount this option but again I thought for a towing vehicle the 2.5 would be more suitable.
 
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm looking to try and get this done by Christmas, if at all possible, so need to get stuck into things and be decisive.
 
What do others think?
 
p.s. if anyone is interested in a trade for my sorted valver, feel free to PM me.
Die Deutsche Doppelkabine ist sehr gut. 150bhp planned
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ELVIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 22:51
cheapest easiest quickest install with bestest mpg will be to ditch the valver for an 8v.
  16v will be an absolute arse ache.
where in eastern europe chap?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ELVIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 22:53
oh, and if your towing , BHP is not a figure you want to be looking at. BHP is the numbers kids look at.
  185bhp is good until you realise it is being made at 5000/5500 + rpm

 You want torque values and you want them pretty low down the rpm range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adyjoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 23:23
and you'll need another gearbox as it will be screaming at 55mph.
 
As it's a Doka go for audi V6 2.8 30v. Dirt cheap and bolt straight on to an SA bellhousing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StvC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 23:32
Cheers Elvis (quick off the mark there). Completely appreciate the point about BHP and this is one of the reasons I was doubting any GTi engine. Surprised by the comment about the ABF being such a pain I understood it was quite simple, sometimes I feel like I'm going round in circles with this. I asked the very same thing about why more people don't use 16v when it seemed such an easier power gain. You would agree on the EJ25 being the best option then?
I have a house in Bulgaria love it and gonna move there on a sabbatical next year hopefully while doing up a second house and flogging a few motors there.
 
Ady, have you got any links to more info on the V6 conversion you mention. This hasn't even come up on the radar when considering conversion except one extract I read (vwkd I think..) saying rhe lump is unreliable and heavy. What's an SA bellhousing? Had assumed South African as they did the V6 as stock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ELVIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 23:44
 seen previous posts about this where 16v was discussed.

16v will fit in a doka easily upright with an adapter plate, then your getting into realms of engine mounts as JX/diesel ones wont work, then the hoses, then the ........

Anything is possible, depends how deep your pockets are!

Hutch has done a scooby conversion. ask him about costings. Have a look and see what a belt and tensioner set for a quad cam costs, think he did his gti conversion for less than the cost of the belt kit!!!!

  SA bellhousing and V6 would be proper good but the pennies start mounting up for bellhousing and fabbing parts.

 pros and cons for every install. without being rude, whats your budget?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StvC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 23:49
Think I can raise 2-2.5k total (including what I'd look to make back breaking donor vehicle) but would prefer not to hence GTI. Ideally I'd buy a donor for 500 and pay 500 in labour and other bits and get somwhere near 160-200 ft/lb torque.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adyjoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 12 at 23:53
Engine is heavy granted but 50kg or so is fairly irrelevant in a heavy old truck. Reliability is not an issue with the 30v engine. Like any engine, you buy a good one and look after it.
 
A few done in Germany and Rob M on here did one a couple of years ago. I'll see if I can find some links.
 
Yes by SA I mean South african. Audi V6 not standard over there,  5 cylinder is. There's another thought... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StvC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:02
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/28-v6-info_topic46043.html
Found this. Will have a mooch, seems complicated and bellhousing is dear but I'm open to a bit more research until the truck is on my drive then I'll focus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ELVIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:04
Start with easier variables to calculate/cost and work back from there. Stuff you know you will have to buy regardless.

Oil, filters, coolant, clutch assembly. Obviously have to find a garage that will take on a non standard transplant then be willing to store it if its a fill in job and finally £500 will get you say 12 to 15 hours spanner time.

Have a look on Rjes website at prices, and any others you think will give you an idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ELVIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:09
Will have a complete AAZ , turbo, manifolds, air box, down pipe etc everything you will need to put it straight into yours using existing diesel stuff.
Won't be for a couple of months but if you could suffer an AAZ will be sensible money and doable on your own drive and probably cheapest option by a mile.Only coming out as the van is getting a gti due it being in London/ LEZ.
Only issue would be is how big is your trailer and how many trips?
Google torque v rpm charts etc of AAZ , 8v , 16v etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StvC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:16
Yeah, not too many trips but the rpm charts look unconvincing especially on the valver although you'd only need the 5000 odd revs occasionally while pootling along. Nice and concise responses though now looking into the Audi conversion as I have an A6 sitting in a Bulgarian garage after a Gipsy 'borrowed' it and landed in ditch, so it's a tad scruffy anyway. Piston Rings suspect though but at Bulgarian labour rates a full rebuild isn't out of the question.
The mind boggles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ELVIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:22
Did know a chap with a v6 taken from a auto test car so had had loom etc already stripped and installed on transmission tunnel so main part of loom donkey work is done. It's a 2.8 24 valve I think but would need to find out. Wanted 150 for engine ecu and loom. He was talking about ebaying it a few weeks back though. Can find out if interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StvC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:32
Yeah that'd be great if you could. 24v though? As in the really recent one? I'd be interested if he hasn't listed already. Big part of budget allocation is what I can get for the left overs of donor though but at that price, it's acceptable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ELVIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:36
Erm, er, k reg Audi 100 Quattro I think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StvC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 00:48
Interesting, didn't think they did a 24v variant but was researching this way back when I had a K reg 80 quattro :-)
Wiki is inconclusive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrhutch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 08:38
^^  it's a 12v
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidPallister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 09:31
I bought my van with the intension of Scoobying it, but what with the unexpected arrival of Mini-Me that all got put on hold.
I've been keeping a close eye on these engine forums, and to be honest, I'm seriously considering going for one of VW Nerds flipped A4/Passat conversions now when he gets the 15deg install sorted.  I'm even thinking of going  1.9TDi for the better low down torque and ecconomy
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rowlesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 12 at 17:22
box will always be the issue so look into doing something with that. i really cant see why people don't do more of the 16v conversions as they are awsome engines but hey.......
8v gti mated to a decent box will see you right! its only the t3 boxes that let the engine down. 115bhp is good for doka and on the dk box it would pull anything and returned decent mpg - it was just the revs that made the conversion silly at times! especially at 90!LOL
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StvC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 12 at 12:06
Yeah, but considering a trip to my place in Bulgaria would involve at least 2000 miles on motorway and I'd want to be doing 80 as it stacks up over that distance vs 55-60 the scream would get quite irritating I imagine.
I'm thinking I need to bite the bullet and go for Scooby unit as SA bellhousing seems hard to find when RJES is up the road (although he has not replied to my email so far). Diesel probably makes the most sense for what I need but I'd need monster truck tyres or a stupid gearbox rebuild (which I might need anyway) but I can't bring myself to do it yet.
 
Would be nice to fit the old twin turbo set up from my two Legacy GTB's I've love in the past but kind of overkill really.
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