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Droopy rear bench? |
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silverbullet 
Yardie 
Ingenieur Joined: 10 Jun 09 Status: Offline Points: 743 |
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 Topic: Droopy rear bench?Posted: 21 Jan 12 at 19:38 |
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This is a problem that seems to afflict most big-window buses with the SA-built rock'n'roll rear bench. The symptoms include a telltale excessive gap where the seatbelts poke through and a generally insecure feeling when sat on:  Mine had not been helped by the lpg fitter who had seen fit to hack out one of the seat stays to clear the gas valve cove on the tank, which then caused the other stay to fracture in due course    So now it's high time to effect a repair mod to make it more like the far-sturdier Multivan frame (note the difference between SA-made and German cushion suspension)  Cue one spare SA rear bench (yes I have one, well chuffed!) and some suitable sized ERW tube:  Cutting and welding tomorrow! I'd advise anyone considering an under-bench lpg tank to get this mod done before going to the fitter of their choice, to maximise the under-bench space for the biggest tank available  P.S. I'm happy to undertake this work for anyone once I've got mine sorted and you like the look of the finished result...
Edited by silverbullet - 21 Jan 12 at 20:01 |
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Diablodub
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mehcedes... Joined: 13 Oct 05 Location: Stu Land Status: Offline Points: 13596 |
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Posted: 21 Jan 12 at 20:24 |
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Droopy rear bench - hee hee
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brick-yard splitters breakaway judean peoples front cheesy toss wank - Member No 1
07974 787780 - Stu |
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Wychall
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Posted: 21 Jan 12 at 23:56 |
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I'm watching this avidly as my bench is presently missing both stays, and also the front cross tube as I instructed the lpg installer to remove the bench and fit a large tank. I then did a temporary mod to get the bench back in which resulted in the missing items. The "droopy" problem is not too severe as rear seat passengers are actually sitting on the gas tank with just a sandwich filling of the original seat. As you can see, my engineering skills were learnt from Heath Robinson so it will be interesting to see the solution from a pukka engineer.
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South African 1991 2.5i 5cyl Microbus - virgin, not campered - piloted by Brian.
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silverbullet
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Posted: 22 Jan 12 at 13:19 |
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Who was your fitter again Brian? Ah, yes I remember, the quality of workmanship speaks volumes  Springs and clips swapped front/rear, so the springs don't grate on the square tube:  Straight instead of cranked tubes mean usefully more headroom for a gas tank, especially if fitting a 4-hole with the more compact gas valve cover:  Nice and strong
Edited by silverbullet - 22 Jan 12 at 13:28 |
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silverbullet
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 09:34 |
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A quick trial fit before swapping the covers over:
 40mm more headroom, so might be able to fit a 270 diameter tank with the ecu bracket removed:  Time to swap the covers over. The one that I took out is going to take a bit more work!  Think I'll cut out the whole channel, that's not going to straighten out very well...
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Wychall
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 11:57 |
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Ah! Looks like mine will have to remain stayless. I already have a 300mm tank hinding under there. I'll just have to keep a close eye on the rear channel. Should be ok because most weight is transferred on to the tank underneath.
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South African 1991 2.5i 5cyl Microbus - virgin, not campered - piloted by Brian.
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TransPorscher
Vanorak 
Joined: 21 Dec 04 Location: South West UK Status: Offline Points: 1350 |
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 12:19 |
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I've had 3 SA vans and they've all suffered with this problem. Good to see Ian's work and write up !
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Charlie
Small Moves Big Grooves! WeFunkRadio.com |
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silverbullet
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 15:29 |
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Yeah and we all know how you wrecked at least one of those Charlie
You should be OK Brian, as it's the increased tension on the wires when loaded that slowly pulls the rear channel out of shape (it's far too lightly made really) With the cushion right on the tank it just makes for a rather firm ride! You might have an interesting time if you ever fold the seat out flat though... Post up a pic of your arrangement as I have just found out that no-one seems to make a 270 dia. tank that holds more than 55 litres
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ELVIS
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Silence is golden, gaffa tape is silver Joined: 04 Nov 06 Location: Promised Land Status: Offline Points: 9982 |
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 16:14 |
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Dont suppose you know what the biggest size tank is you can fit under a multivan bed/seat do you Ian?
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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS
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silverbullet
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 16:47 |
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The limit seems to be 55 wet capacity unless you chop the seat frame about or worse. I'm seriously considering a second transverse tank over the transaxle. Should be able to squeeze a 244 dia x 1000 long in there.
Not an option for a standard syncro though (ditch the plastic and fit a small custom metal one in the rear wing like the old Range Rovers used to maybe?) There are no tanks over 1200mm long at the smaller diameters.
Edited by silverbullet - 23 Jan 12 at 16:49 |
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Wychall
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 20:22 |
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I was wondering about all that wasted space behind the firewall so will be interested to see how you get on if you fit a dual tank under there.
As to my rear seat, it still folds out flat, although I must admit that I haven't checked the clearance whilst it's out. Just booked my pitch for Bustypes in April so I hope the bed is comfortable! I will get snap happy tomorrow and post up some pics of the installation. |
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South African 1991 2.5i 5cyl Microbus - virgin, not campered - piloted by Brian.
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silverbullet
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 20:56 |
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Get a firm mattress to put on top of the whole bed unless you are 5 foot nothing tall, in which case lie across the bus! The engine cover is rock hard and the carpet pad is there for show, not comfort.
I'm never going to try and kip in mine again, nearly crippled me last time
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silverbullet
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 21:09 |
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Automotive Tanks in Willenhall might be worth a phone call, as they seem to be happy to make lpg tank 1-offs to order, range of diameters etc.
FES AUtogas (gasit.co.uk) also do some unusual sizes (trade but webshop too) like: Stako 270 dia x 607 long single hole tank, 30 litre wet under £44 + vat each! Ok so it means buying 2 valve units etc but that would give 48 litres of lpg, 10 more than I've currently got under the bench. I could re-use the valve I've got though, there would be space in between for the ecu to live in it's correct position, sounding good  They've also got 315 x 600 long (40 litre wet) for a tenner more, but I don't think that would go under even with the seat stays cut out. 300 dia is about the limit but you do have to chop out the tie bar between the hinges and loose the kickboard. Enough for now!
Edited by silverbullet - 23 Jan 12 at 21:30 |
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TransPorscher
Vanorak
Joined: 21 Dec 04 Location: South West UK Status: Offline Points: 1350 |
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Posted: 23 Jan 12 at 23:00 |
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Or as mentioned the seat only folds level with the metal of engine lid / boot floor...........
So if the rear seat hinge frame was mounted to the body this distance further up, a rear cushion as in original Multivans could be used. Depends how the headroom of the sitting position matters. ? Tall regular rear seat passengers etc I'm lucky not to need the rear seat so have fitted the biggest tank I could build under a box at the same height as engine lid. Hopefully with Ian's mod a perfect length/height under bench tank can be sourced. I would consider this mod before returning the rear seat to mine, sometime in the future. For now I'm happy with over 500 mile rage on LPG !! Great for coming home from German bus meetings !!!! Edited by TransPorscher - 23 Jan 12 at 23:01 |
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Charlie
Small Moves Big Grooves! WeFunkRadio.com |
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silverbullet
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Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 11:00 |
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Coffee break so I've been playing with cardboard cutouts in the rain  300mm is definitely too big without chopping. I guess this is what Brian has got fitted. A 270 diameter will fit between the rock'n'roll cross-tube and the rear firewall, allowing for 10-15mm of cradle underneath. The gas valve cover(s) will be snug under the frame but should clear OK. Placing them at the front would give more headroom but maybe less clearance to the front. More cardboard needed! The sound deadening will probably need trimming back in a couple of places and if going for twin tanks, some creativity in locating the lpg bulkhead fitting will be required...in the middle over the transaxle if it's far enough from the exhaust (200mm minimum sounds familiar?) If you're running a G50 or UN-1 this almost certainly isn't an option. Raising the rear bench mounting points plus adding an engine cover cushion is starting to sound like a good idea, but I've got original rear side speakers fitted and they're a bit on the low side too Some tabs welded on the fixed bar of the hinges would do it, I'm not sure about the height of the backrest pegs with big windows though. I don't want ironmongery on show! |
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Wychall
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Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 12:05 |
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Firstly, heres my droop...........
 Supported underneath by this......  Which meant removing the front cross tube and the kickboard. I don't see that the cross tube has any function? Braces the sides of the bus perhaps? I have left the few inches of tube protruding in case I need to build some sort of support for the hinge, although all seems fine so far. Typical of my engineering skills, suck it and see, then modify if needs be.  The valve chamber has plenty of space.  The bed still lies flat.  with quite a a bit of clearance underneath.  The initial fill of the tank swallowed 58 litres so it is giving a reasonable range although a second tank underneath may still be on the cards. Edited by Wychall - 24 Jan 12 at 12:10 |
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South African 1991 2.5i 5cyl Microbus - virgin, not campered - piloted by Brian.
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silverbullet
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Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 12:39 |
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4-hole tank! Nice fast fill compared to a single-hole tank I'm told. What length & diameter is that tank Brian? It'll say on the welded test plate if the manufacturer's sticker isn't there.
I see the springs won't stay on the wires! That's 'cos the frame is pulling in. It defo needs bracing if you think there's room to put in 22mm round or 20mm square tube over the top, even if the wires rest directly on them.
The hinge cross-tube ties the two sides of the mechanism together, so it can be lifted one-handed/from one side without the seat base twisting and the whole thing binding up (like mine had a tendency to do) |
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Wychall
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Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 13:22 |
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Can't see any details on the tank. If there is a welded plate it must behind or underneath. There is however a little soggy bit of paper (blame the condensation!) which say ZC300/70L. A quick google tells me this is 300 x 1085mm with a wet fill of 56 litres (not bad for my initial fill of 58).
I agree with your comments about the twisting. Perhaps I should try and put a cranked replacement in. I hadn't paid attention to the loose spring so it does look as though I will need to follow your lead. |
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South African 1991 2.5i 5cyl Microbus - virgin, not campered - piloted by Brian.
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silverbullet
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Posted: 30 Jan 12 at 13:12 |
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One observation on quality of finish:
The frame that I repaired came from a '94 I think and has the familiar black EP finish that anyone with a German bus would recognize. The springs and hooks were also black coated, nice quality all of it. The frame that I took out of the '95 has a really poor, thin laquer that's allowed the surface to rust due to condensation and damp. The springs etc were zinc plated and going powdery. It suggests that they were starting to cheapen them up around that time?
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Wychall
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Posted: 30 Jan 12 at 13:52 |
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Not sure that you are accurate there Ian.
As you see from the pics above, mine has the surface rust and powdery springs that you describe and is from a 91 bus. Perhaps bases were sourced from different suppliers with various finishing facilities. |
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South African 1991 2.5i 5cyl Microbus - virgin, not campered - piloted by Brian.
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Wychall wrote: