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Topic ClosedDynamat in yer Doors?

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ELVIS View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 08 at 22:19
no worries chap! hoping it makes a big difference - whole front panel is being hit/buffeted head on continuously (sorry to state the obvious). will let you know thursday night.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 07:18
So, with regard to positioning.

Cab doors we reckon a 6.5" component setup with the larger speaker in the 'hole' and a tweeter higher up.

If you have a crewcab is there any point in rear door speakers and what sort (same as the front?) should they be?

I've had a temporary setup in mine for a year now. I Dynamatted the doors and waxoyled through. Put a layer on the under seat panels while I was at it also.

The info on Blaupunkt stereos was very welcome. I'm tired of kinked heater cables and trapped wires because the head units don't fit the designated space and a simple black Blaupunkt will suit the truck better than a flashy silver item.

I fancy making some sealed boxes in the doors to get the most from the speakers, most manufacturers now put at the very least a plastic cone behind the speaker to keep the volume correct and in a T3 door thats a lot of air for a little speaker to fuddle with. Making it smaller and sealed should offer a cleaner, punchier sound surely?

Good thread, keep up the pearls of knowledge guys.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 11:19
As a car audio nut, I'm a big fan of the premise "One speaker for one job". So my car-stereo setups are always:
  • A pair of midrange speakers in the front doors
  • A pair of tweeters on the dash or horns under it
  • One or two subs in the boot
Any more speakers in the mix and you just muddy the sound (in my opinion, of course)

This in mind, I wouldn't advocate the use of rear speakers at all, let alone in the rear doors. Putting them there puts them close to your (the driver) head, so definitely confusing where the sound is coming from. The more social among you may argue that your rear passengers may get a bass-heavy sound, but they're passengers - sod 'em LOL

On the topic of sealed boxes though, you'd be surprised what a midrange driver works with. Apparently, the ideal sealed "box" size for a midrange driver is anything from 2-4 cubit feet. So a well-sealed door is a good size for them. I have previously made a sealed box for midrange drivers by replacing the door pocket with an MDF "build". This made for a capacity of something like 0.5cu ft and, sure, the sound was very punchy. BUT there was very little bass-response, as the resonant frequency was far too high.

That said, I'm planning on making sealed boxes for Myrtle by making a fibreglass "tub" that drops down below the lowest hole in the door, then having the speaker mounted on an angle on a baffle bolted to the front. This will serve a number of purposes:
  • A more solid mounting for the speaker, giving better bass-response (or rather, losing less through shaking the door)
  • Less requirement for Dynamat/sound deadening, as the door itself won't be forced to "contain" the bass notes
  • Better aiming for the midrange, giving a better soundstage (I hope)
  • I shouldn't have to worry about the speaker getting wet/rusty Clap
But bear in mind I'm going over the top on stereo setup because I'm silly. The "tubs" that I plan on making will be in excess of 1cu ft and will be chuffing solid. Whatever you choose to seal your speakers with, bear in mind that the capacity of the door is actually working in your favour. Unless you replace that space with another of similar size, you'll probably be disappointed

Final comment about bass response and what you think you're hearing. The standard T3 doors have lots of BIG holes in, covered with some very thin and weedy hardboard. If you put a speaker of reasonable strength into the door cavity, you will hear bass through the speaker and, to a lesser extent, the areas of the door card where there are holes behind. This in itself is muddling what sound you hear and bass the most, because it's the highest-energy signal. If you strengthen the door card, or "block off" the holes using Dynamat/etc, then you'll only hear the sound from the speaker itself, significantly increasing the clarity of the sound

Hope I haven't bored you to sleep! Wink

Richard
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 10:24

what about the air holes in the front edge and the vent at the base of the doors? fill them up? do the vents actually serve any real purpose anyway?

i've mounted front speakers the way that poshbuggers has described - a midrange in the big hole towards the base of the door and a tweeter just in front of the winder. i've then got a moisture barrier behind the speakers to stop them getting wet/rusty and i've stuck a load of sound deadening panels to the inside of the outer door skins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 12:55
The vents at the base of the doors shouldn't be a problem as they're fed from the fan at the front of the bus (sometimes!)

As for the air holes in the front, no - that won't help significantly. Your aim is to block off the holes facing you (or simply strengthen the door card in those places, which is the cheaper and simpler option), which gives two benefits:
  1. reducing the places that the speaker sound can get out from, which means you get more sound from the speaker itself (yay, woo, louder music! Clap)
  2. more importantly, you are reducing the places your ear hears sound from, which increases the sound clarity
Bass frequencies are affected most by multiple sound locations (as their wavelength is the longest) and will suffer cancellation (flat spots) or resonance (booming). So by reducing the effect of the other, unwanted sound locations, you improve the sound quality and, by happy accident, quantity

Hope that clears things up?

Richard
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 21:11
 Took out dashboard today and realised how little of the front panel you can reach ,bugger.
    Anyway , craked on and did anything/everything i could reach. In a moment of inspired genius i did as much of the underside of the dash as i could.
 
   Deffo a noticable improvement and worth the hassle IMHO ( or even wait until doing heater etc)
 
 Also replaced the washer jets with a set of twin jets (two jets/nozzles in each  unit so 4 jets in total)  deffo big thumbs up for them.
 
  feckin rained all day though!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 08 at 09:35
I did wonder about how much of the front panel you can get to. Maybe an option would be to go in from behind the radiator and cover the front with Waxoyl instead/as well? Just a thought, the liquid-based sound-deadening materials are pretty good (I'm chuffed to bits with Second Skin Spectrum). Could you "pour" the deadening into areas you couldn't get the flashing tape?

Where did you get the twin-jets from? Sounds like a good investment!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 08 at 15:20
 If you were ever replacing fan and had the heater box out you could get to it all.
    Doubt you could get liquid stuff in without making a real mess , pipes/hoses/wires/trim everywhere - was a 'kin nightmare!!!
   jets were from Mike at www.busman.be . cant remember how much i paid , but wasnt a huge amount. deffo a thumbs up upgrade.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 08 at 08:26
hey guys
aiming a little point to all involved in this thread and who like the whole car audio thing have you noticed that there has been less focus in the past few years on car audio installations/builds/demo vehicles etc...i used to love that 'car stereo and security' mag that used to be available on the newsagents shelves but now thats faded away, it only seems to be the few keen folk that still spend time(and money) on a decent system and you can't broadcast it too much anyways cos of the scabby pikeys that might target your pride and joy for the contents of it...ah well rant over
nice thread hope someone here keeps car audio alive, vans always made great spl machines...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 09:57
Woo!!!! Got Myrtle back from Elite VW last night! Approve
Phase 2 of sound-control and stereo equipment should start in the next week or so. Plans include:
  • Localising and reducing engine noise
  • Minimising wind-noise from the front panel (bought some large sheets of closed-cell foam at Vanfest that might be the answer)
  • Reducing road noise from the floor area
  • Building fibreglass sub-boxes underneath the rear seat
  • Replacement front door cards with fibreglass speaker pods
  • A-pillar tweeter "builds" (also known as stealth sound-deadening Big%20smile)
As you can imagine, this is going to take a while, but I'll post progress reports with pictures as I can

Richard
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 10:40
Go for it Richard!  I never imagined this thread would turn into such a long-lived and interesting one!
 
My next step is to get my front seats out, re-arrange some of the campervan electric bits that live under there, and then make some sound-deadening panels to go into those under-seat spaces.  If possible I want to mount an amp under there then, which will hopefully power the speakers I have better without having to use the head-unit at almost full volume.  Then, if possible, deaden the front panel with the minimum of dismantling of the dash.  As Elvis says, if you ever have to get it out entirely then that's the time to do it more thoroughly.
 
I hope I meet up with you and Myrtle somewhere next season, and compare notes!
 
Best wishes,
 
Paul.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 12:25
Can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to spending time working on the bus again - she's been off the road for two months waiting for the engine to be sorted, so I'm champing at the bit, as 'twere!

If you're ever down South Paul, I'm near Portsmouth and am happy to meet up and discuss/demonstrate. As for shows, we should be at Bus Types and Vanfest next year. Not sure what others we'll make it to as we're looking to move to Devon. But will give many progress reports in here anyway Wink

Richard
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 13:16
i was just looking at patrick's air ride tristar bbuild thread on vw vortex.
there are some great pictures of his sound deadening install around the cab / dash area with the dash and pedals out...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 16:26
Hi guys,
 
Richard, we normally have a Brick-Yard camp set up at Bus Types, look out for the thread nearer the time and join in if you would like to.  We are (mostly) harmless!  Myrtle looks good with her big bumpers (ooerr missus!)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 08 at 21:17
Fascinating to read all the threads on this subject as i am also in midst of an upgrade in the i.c.e. department! Currently got diamond audio 61/2 inch mids in doors (with strengthened/baffled door cards) tweeters on dash. Some rear fill ( debateable point i know!) with 51/4 mids in overhead rear locker. (got speakers from autosounds4less in usa - when exchange was better!) 
All amped up (genesis 4 channel) with cd head unit and ipod connector. Just managed to source a jl audio sub 12" and a jl audio amp (ebay) to fire it up which i plan to put in the rear seat base.
I have put fatmat - (dynamat equivalent) in doors and next weekend plan to do all the front foot well and rear floor. Also bought some housing insulation (thin stuff) to spray glue down to help insulate for keeping warmer on chillier nights!Big%20smile 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 08 at 21:26
Globbits/other clever audio chaps - got a a crewie and just installed new door cards front and rear.Dont really want to cut rear door cards as there is no-where to run the cables easily into the rear door(not drilled in side of door for cables and cant run them inside B pillars either).
  Would it be ok to install speakers in the 'box' that the rear seat sits on ? Its the metal type. If so what would be best ? I dont want 6 x 9s , just plain 15cm round uns.
 Any ideas ?
 
 
 now that i have near finished , here is what i have done so far
 
   150mm was best - wide enough that you wernt cutting loads but skinny enough not to have to mess about getting it in the front doors without folding it 50 times!
 
  On the crewie i did rear door , rear non-door side , front doors (outer skin AND inner metal skin that speakers go thr), behind rear seat backrest, bulkhead under/behind rear seat , as much as poss of front panel/bulkhead and also underside of dash.
 
 Made a huge difference. Going to do under front seats tomorrow with 3 layers also plan to do around rear window and then cover in accoustic cloth/lining carpet..
 
With reference to mounting front speakers more solidly. On ebay you can get MDF rings like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-of-MDF-Speaker-Spacer-Rings-to-Suit-6-5in-Speakers_W0QQitemZ180304060731QQihZ008QQcategoryZ18799QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem. I screwed these onto the door cards from behind - about 8 10mm screws after spraying them satin black and these have made a massive difference.More soldily mounted and door cards dont end up all tatttered from having speakers mounted directly with those wankey metal clips.
 
 


Edited by ELVIS - 06 Nov 08 at 22:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 08 at 00:22
Elvis, looks like you've been busy! Nice work! (Will comment on what you've done in a mo' Wink)

I have to admit I'm changing my focus away from flashband/dynamat/spectrum and moving towards foam. Don't get me wrong, the difference in the sound of shutting the doors, now I've got a layer of material on the outer skins, is a huge improvement. But on the basis Myrtle isn't ever going to be in a car-audio competition and isn't going to run such a massive system that I have to worry about sound volumes shaking panels, I figure that deadening doors and the like isn't for me.

Keep in mind that dynamat-type materials are designed to reduce the resonance of a panel. Ambient sound reduction is a happy by-product, but that means that there are more efficient ways of reducing ambient noise - foam being a good example. My feeling is that the biggest achievements can be made by reducing engine, wind and road noise - in that order of priority. So, my prime targets are going to be:

Engine noise
Foam sheeting in the tailgate, on the slope in front of the engine, then surface above the engine
Wind noise
Foam sheeting bonded to the front panel below the dash, behind the dash and inside the front doors and sliding doors (Myrtle's a twin-slider). Not to the outer skins, but as close to the door card as I can get, behind the inner skin

Road noise
Flashband on the rear floor area and cab floor area (I've already done my wheel arches, otherwise they'd be first LOL) I might play with putting a layer of foam on top here, under the carpet, but that might be overkill

I reckon I can at least quarter the ambient noise by doing that lot and it's probably only a solid weekend's work

Once that's done, I shall be making new front door cards out of 6mm ply, bracing them around the speaker mountings, then making pods for the actual speakers

So that's me - guess I'd best comment on your questions Elvis Wink

As I've said before, don't bother with rear speakers. Really. Really really. You won't notice a benefit, as all you'll hear from them is midrange, which will confuse your ears. Really really really. This also goes for speakers in the box below the rear seats - it may improve the sound when you're parked up at a campsite and sat in the back just chilling, but the rest of the time it'll sound worse - promise. Just put a pair of good strong speakers (or ideally 2-way components) up front and you'll be happy as Larry. If you like bass, put a sub in the back. Do not put rear speakers in!

Incidentally Myrtle currently has a pair of 6*9's mounted in the bottom of the front doors and, much as it pains me to say it, the sound's really not bad from them. I'm really not a fan of 6*9's as they're a compromise speaker, but in the front of a T3, they give a damned good sound. If you haven't bought your front speakers yet, get a pair of 6*9's and you won't go far wrong.

As for more-solidly mounting speakers, damned right - MDF baffles are your friend. If you're handy with a jigsaw (or a router) you can easily make the baffles yourself, but if not the ebay ones are fine. Essentially all you're doing is increasing the stiffness of the door card at the point the speaker's fitted, forcing the speaker to move the cone more and itself less, making it more efficient. The bigger (wider) you can make the baffle, the stronger the bracing and the better the effect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 08 at 14:02
Hi Guys,
 
Globbits - I'm loving reading your contributions to this thread, and it is largely down to you that it has lived so long, so I'm sorry but I can't agree with your advice not to fit rear speakers.  The addition of speakers above the rear locker in my T3 camper, in addition to the ones in the front doors, made a huge difference.  They fill in the sound when you are driving along, and they are great for music listening and the audio from DVD's while relaxing on the rear seat/bed (which is also part of why you fit a stereo, especially in a campervan IMHO).  There is no way I would go back to how it was without them!
 
Also, in my case, the whole project/install is an experimental exercise.  It's interesting and it's fun to try things out and find out what difference they make.  More sound deadening etc. next for me as I have said above.
 
Paul.
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 09 at 08:24
I have also done my westy and added thermawrap insulation at the same time
photos at the link below under sound 7 insulation
http://albums.phanfare.com/2193687/3365536

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 09 at 01:28
I don't get it that Dynamat will be moisture problem.
I fitted it my last van (not vw), due to the cost of Dynamat, I did the cab in Dynamat and the rest in flashing and car felt, and mdf panels, I fitted 4x15's in it so I felt it was justified, made a massive difference. Anyway a seal in the fibreglass roof failed and it rained heavily while I was away, when I got back there was puddles in the van, 2 inches deep in some places. I despaired. I tell this anecdote because after sorting all the mess out, it was only the panels that had dynamat that weren't affected by the water, a lot of the panels were still factory paint and survived unscathed but others that weren't covered needed attention.
The adhesive on the back of Dynamat is thick and waterproof if you put it on properly it will be like  a layer of waterproof membrane, in my mind anyway, and in the unplanned experiment above it didn't contradict this thinking for me. The foam itself doesn't retain water either, so I don't quite see it myself.
I aint no authority on the matter by any stretch of the imagination though heh, just my 2p really

I do heartily agree that Dynamat is for the most part "the emperor's clothes" , most people don't need/use it well, same results can be achieved with other methods, and I think there are better products around in competition with Dynamat, just don't see them in the uk much, mostly in the US.

so with that said, I am doing my van (california) in Dynamat at the mo, hehe
I am putting it in because I am familiar with it and know what I can realistically achieve with it, and lazyness :) but more importantly I am putting it in to quiet the van ride, these are noisy beasts on the road I find. I am also putting it in because I am fitting 6x9s in the doors and they are nice ones (Morel), so would like to hear at least some of the speaker that I buying.

I am fitting it to :
All doors, footwells, arches, under chair boxes, rear air intakes, engine lid, side panels on non westy side of van (not doing behind the westy units)
that is 250 quids worth of Dynamat.

I have been tapping knocking and listening to the panels and find some sound very resonant and others don't, the ones that are resonant are the ones I felt I needed to get at.
I will tackle the nose on another occasion, 2 sheets should do it I think, lot of work to get those two sheets in.

that's probably a boring long and opinionated post, so here's a couple of pictures of my 6x9 builds pre-resin as they are right now to make up for it, I hope


http://img299.imageshack.us/i/p1010005f.jpg/

http://img81.imageshack.us/i/p1010004uxh.jpg/


Edited by dude - 13 Aug 09 at 01:39
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