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Lucas injection pump

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MaartenT3 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Dec 19 at 01:22
Hello! Let's give this a try.

I have a Volkswagen T3 with an 1.9d engine with code AEF (6n1 polo) with an injection pump from Lucas (model LS4000). The engine ran great without any problems (!) until the injection pump seal started to leak and needed to be replaced.
The central nut of the pulley was removed to replace the seal behind it. But than I read you should never remove the central nut because you could mess up the basis adjustment of the pump. After inspecting the pulley 'carrier' i noticed it has a woodruff key (so there is only one way to put the pulley and pulley carrier back. I put everything back into place but I'm afraid i might have messed up something anyway because the engine wouldn't start after extensive trying Shocked

Any advice is welcome. I can of course give additional info if needed. 

Cheers! Maarten
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Timjburrows View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 19 at 12:02
you will need a timing gauge and adaptor to determine TDC in the pump,then refit the hub in the correct position,locking slot in hub matching up mith cut out or 6mm hole in pump,tighten and check it not moved 45nm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaartenT3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 19 at 16:56

Hi Tim,

Much thanks for your reply! Much appreciated! 
Will I determain TDC on the backside of the pump? (Luckely I have the timing gauge, adaptor and the 6mm pin for locking).
The hub has a woodruff key, how do I match up TDC in the pump (and the corresponding position of the axle) and the locking slot in the hub if the key only allows me to put the hub back in only one position?

Thank you! Thumbs Up

Maarten
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 19 at 22:25
interesting,not seen a Lucas pump but Bosch pumps don’t have keys just a tapered fit,I’d try tdc ing the pump and pin the hub,time it up and see if it goes,if it’s all together now just check it’s pumping diesel to the injectors and the cam timing isn’t 180 degrees out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 19 at 23:12
just been looking at a drawing of a pump for an AEF,do you just have a sprocket or a sprocket that bolts to a hub that bolts to the pump?something else the fuel inlet and outlet banjo bolts that fit the pipes on a Bosch pump look the same but the outlet one has a restriction in it and goes on the sprocket end of the pump,it’s needed to pressurise the fuel inside the pump so it can inject it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 19 at 23:17
does the stop solinoid click when powered up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 19 at 10:42
1. You cannot time these pumps with the dial gauge and adaptor like the Bosch pumps. There is a way to establish the timing, but it's not really a DIY job, and not easy to describe here.

2. If the pump does indeed have a woodruff key and you've put the pulley carrier back exactly as it came off, and put the timing belt back on correctly, you will not have altered the timing. I can't be sure, but I didn't think they had a woodruff key.

3. Air will have entered the pump while it was being worked on. It's more likely that the pump just needs bleeding of air. There is a nipple on the top of the pump which you can use to suck up fuel until it completely fills the pump. Then crank the engine and while cranking, slacken the 8mm bleed screw on the side of the pump until fuel free of air bubbles flows out, tighten the bleed screw again while still cranking. Then slacken off at least three of the injector tube nuts slightly, and crank the engine on full throttle until fuel free of air bubbles squirts out of all three. Be careful not to get in the way of any diesel spray! As you tighten the tube nuts the engine should start, and in a few seconds it will push any air out of the fourth injector pipe. You have to do all three stages of this bleeding procedure exactly as described or it won't work.

Have a good Christmas!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 19 at 18:48
Why is a Lucas pump so different to a Bosch?sounds over complicated to me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 19 at 22:45
Originally posted by Timjburrows Timjburrows wrote:

Why is a Lucas pump so different to a Bosch?

They are a totally different internal design. Bosch piston moves axially along its length, so you can stick a piece of metal in the end and know how far the piston moves. Lucas inherits its design from the old CAV pumps where the pistons are radial ie moving in and out towards the axis, so there's nowhere you can measure the displacement simply.

Originally posted by Timjburrows Timjburrows wrote:

Sounds over complicated to me

First stage fills the vane pump. Second stage the vane pump fills the high pressure pump chamber. Third stage the high pressure pump fills the injection pipes. Nipple-Screw-Nuts.....Takes a couple of minutes. Saves grinding away on the starter for ages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 19 at 10:04
very interesting,thanks for that

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaartenT3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 11:33

Hello Colin and Tim,

A reply from Colinthefox himself, what an honor! I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the extensive manual you wrote about the 1.9d AEF to VW T3 transplant Clap Couldn't have done it without it! In the meantime we've been from Amsterdam to Albania and back, so I would call that a success!

Thank you both for the discussion, much appreciated. Unfortunately I have a severe case of man flu, so no wrenching for a few days.

Tim:
I feel comfortable wrenching on these engines (with exception of the pump itself), the cam timing is spot on, as well is the timing of the crankshaft. The pump uses a sprocket hub/carrier (I will try to include a photo is this post). The solenoid clicks and some (not much) diesel is coming out of the injector lines. I will certainly check the banjo bolts, great tip!

Colin:
Strangely the Lucas pump does have a Woodruff key (see photo below). When I put the engine in TDC the 6mm dowel pin fit exactly in the hole of the pump body. When you take off the sprocket carrier, it only goes back on in one way (because of the key, duh).
I will definitely try to fill the pump with the method you’ve described. It’s possible that the last time this was not done meticulously enough.
In your last message you wrote about the three stages of building pressure in the pump. I was assuming that with every rotation of the pump all four injectors receive an injection. Do I understand correctly from your explanation that when you set the pump to TDC, it is possible that the pump must be rotated 1 or 2 times to put it in the correct position?

Thanks for thinking along!

Maarten




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 19:29
thanks for the thanks,I think Colin means the three stages are to get up to high pressure and inject diesel,the Bosch self bleeds the air out of the pump but the Lucas pump has bleed screws that when loosened allow the air to escape 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 19:33
Originally posted by MaartenT3 MaartenT3 wrote:


In the meantime we've been from Amsterdam to Albania and back, so I would call that a success!

Unfortunately I have a severe case of man flu, so no wrenching for a few days.


We've been down that way too this year. Unfortunately the spigot bearing collapsed so we turned around at Mostar/Dubrovnik as I was afraid of wrecking the gearbox.

Wishing you a speedy return to wrenching.........

Originally posted by MaartenT3 MaartenT3 wrote:


The Lucas pump does have a Woodruff key (see photo below). When I put the engine in TDC the 6mm dowel pin fit exactly in the hole of the pump body. When you take off the sprocket carrier, it only goes back on in one way (because of the key, duh).

There doesn't seem to be a photo!

It's good that you have a Woodruff key. That means providing you have timed the belt correctly the pump will be correctly timed to the crankshaft. The pump delivers to all four injectors for every pump rotation. However as the crank rotates twice for each pump rotation, it is still possible to have the pump injecting the wrong cylinder. It would be good to check that with the pump dowel in place, the cam lobes for cylinder 1 are both pointing upwards ie cylinder 1 is at the top of its compression stroke. It's an easy mistake to make, and I have done it myself (just the once!).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaartenT3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 20:42
Tim:
Ah I see!  Good to know.

Colin:
What a pity that the journey had to be stopped prematurely. It is beautiful driving there.
I have been struggling this afternoon to post a photo but unfortunately without success.

Good to hear about your explanation, I almost got it!
The pump makes half the number of rotations of the crankshaft. But every rotation of the pump consists of a fuel injection for every cylinder. I know that the crankshaft and the camshaft are timed correctly since the valves and the pistons have not been able to get acquainted ;-) Lastly the pump can only  be installed in one way with the 6mm dowel pin. Correct?
Is it possible I have to install the pump, be 100% sure there is no air inside the pump and try to start the engine. If the engine doesn’t want to start, return the engine to 1 cylinder TDC, remove the timing belt, rotate the pump one rotation and reinstall the belt to repeat this process. Or am I mistaken in this approach?

Thank you both for the interesting read.


Maarten
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 21:45
when your setting the crank to top dead centre are you using the flywheel marks through the bell housing ?and are your heater plugs working actually getting hot?not just the light going out,does it turn over fast? as slow cranking may not be creating enough heat to fire the diesel 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 22:08
Originally posted by MaartenT3 MaartenT3 wrote:


If the engine doesn’t want to start, return the engine to 1 cylinder TDC, remove the timing belt, rotate the pump one rotation and reinstall the belt to repeat this process. Or am I mistaken in this approach?

Erm that's not right. Kind of hard to describe, but I'll try...........

If the engine doesn’t want to start, try bleeding the pump again. If that doesn't work, and you're quite sure that there is no air left in the pump. return the engine to cylinder 1 TDC, with the dowel holes in line and insert the dowel. Check the cam, making sure that the two lobes of cylinder 1 are pointing upwards with both valves closed(meaning that cylinder 1 is at the top of its compression stroke). The slot at the end of the cam should be level with and close to the top of the cylinder head too. In the very unlikely event that the lobes of cylinder 1 are pointing downwards, that is wrong. You'll need to remove the dowel, and rotate the engine exactly one complete revolution to no1 TDC, so the lobes are pointing upwards. Then remove the timing belt, and rotate the PUMP exactly ONE HALF of a revolution until you can insert the dowel again. Replace the belt, remove the dowel, and you should be good to go.

The Lucas pump is supposed to self bleed, but if has a lot of air inside, you can flatten a battery or two, burn out  a starter motor, and lose the will to live before it will start.

Best of luck!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaartenT3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 22:08

I use the flywheel marks through the bell housing to determine the crankshaft position. For the camshaft I use the lobes on the first cylinder and the notch on the rear side of the shaft. The heater plugs get 12V, that’s confirmed. They’re about 1.5 years old.
To be honest, now I got the think of it, the engine isn’t turning overly enthusiastic fast, I will address this. Good call!

On a side note, I see some people use feeler gauges in combination with the bar-type-tool to lock the camshaft to find the exact TDC of the camshaft. I always thought that was kind of unnecessary due to the large steps in the ribs of the timing belt (you’re either right or you’re not). Any thoughts?

Maarten
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaartenT3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 22:19
Ha! The will to live Shocked

Understood. Looking back at the pictures just now I realise there are 2 holes for the dowel pins (stupid me!!). I’m fairly certain in what hole the dowel originally came from but this information is excellent.

I’ll report back! Thank you.

Maarten

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timjburrows Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 19 at 22:34
if you find the injector pipe that goes to number 1 nearest to the timing belt,slacken it off and crank the engine looking at the cam,when the lobes are uppermost it should be squirting diesel,this will give you a rough measure of weather the timing is close or not,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MaartenT3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 20 at 18:39
The T3 is alive!!

I started filling the pump by connecting a long piece of hose with a bottle of diesel and running the pump by hand. I then continued to run the pump while I gave the solenoid 12v which started filling the injector lines.

Afterwards I built in the pump and set it accurately on time. Initially, the engine ran poorly; a lot of smoke, shaking and not wanting to keep an idle. Fortunately I remembered that I had turned one of the set screws on the back of the pump because I thought that the gauge could be connected there (only for the Bosch pumps). By turning this screw the engine started to immediately run beautiful, hold idle and the smoking stopped.

Everything has been built in again and the first test drive is a fact! Good start, runs calm and has power as before. I just have to play around with venting the cooling system, but that will have to happen next day / days.

Thank you so much for the tips, but also for the motivation to continue. Thumbs Up

Maarten
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