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Petrol engine cutting out when hot

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Angelina View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Petrol engine cutting out when hot
    Posted: 09 Aug 14 at 15:07
Hello all, I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this new issue I'm having with my horsebox.

It's a 1982 LT35 2.0l petrol engine. 

I was driving home the other day when the engine sort of paused or spluttered, it felt as if I was running out of petrol. I was going along quite fast (well, 50 mph) and I slowed right down and managed to get home without completely stopping. 
I booked in with a local garage as the fuel tank was pretty rough and I thought maybe there were bits of rust getting in to carb, bought and had fitted new fuel tank and garage took for mot. Flew through mot but on way home they had same issue only with them the engine completely cut out, they got it home, blew out the carb with an airline, adjusted the timing, and gave it back to me. 
So, driving back from garage had to follow a diversion as road was closed and after about 20 mins, same thing happened. 

Talking to farmer where I keep the horsebox, he said he wondered if it was overheating, and fuel can evaporate in the carb which is why it feels like it's running out of petrol. 
The temperature gauge is on about a quarter, no light flashing, but I did notice that the engine cover was really hot, don't know if that's normal? 

Any thoughts and/or things to try much appreciated. I've got a new coil sitting here in a box, is that worth putting on? Anything else?
Thanks in advance


Edited by Angelina - 09 Aug 14 at 15:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LTCamper89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 14 at 15:22
I would say starvation possibly due to a blocked vent. Changing the fuel tank was probably a bit premature since the old vents back on, without making sure they were clear may be the problem.

AndyT may be along, he has an early petrol model too. Plenty other will no doubt put a word in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 14 at 15:29
Thanks, where are the vents and how do I check them? Old tank needed changing really, was full of holes and mainly held together with milliput! 

Edited by Angelina - 09 Aug 14 at 15:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LTCamper89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 14 at 15:47
Just found this page, in German, but the trnslation is easy enough to follow. It may give you a place to start.

Milliput is one of AndyTs' handy repair tips, so be careful.Wink
1989 LT28 2.4D    Saviour of 6Music, well one of them. Now playing http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/bbc_6music

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....at least the roof is not rusting away....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 14 at 15:53
Lol, I know, it was him that put me on to it- great stuff and I've converted the farmer to it when repairing some of his machines! But there comes a point, when it's leaking everywhere that I thought was worth replacing the tank. New tank is lovely and shiny!

Thanks for the link :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote volition82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 14 at 07:25
When it happened the second time with you were you also going fast (ignoring the fact that fast and LT is an oxymoron ) or under load i.e a lower gear up a hill? If so could possibly be the fuel pump breaking down when under to much load or after being run for a while.

With reference to the coil, do you have a Haynes manual and a multimeter? If so they are easy to check and the manual shows the range you should be getting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 14 at 09:06
I was in low gear but around the lanes so slow. I may have been gently accelerating..... 
If the temperature gauge moves does that mean it works? The fuel gauge doesn't work.
Someone said drive it without the cap on the coolant, is this a good or bad idea?!
I've put the new coil on anyway as I had one and it's a 5 minute job, not test driven it yet to see if any change
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 14 at 14:44
Coil would have been my starting point as they do break down and heat up.
Not easy to check on an LT cos of the engine cover.

There are a couple more simple checks but since you've replaced it let us know how you get on.

Edit: Great news on the MOT btw, emmisions were fine so this makes me think it's a spark issue.



Edited by AndyT - 10 Aug 14 at 14:51
LT28 1979 2.0 Pampas Nevada Camper LPG 93K, 1980 T3 A/C Camper 98K,1994 RRC 3.9 LPG 120k , 1998 Audi A6 Est 2.5 V6 diesel 127k

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 14 at 17:28
Just took it for a test drive with new coil and now feels different. Backfired and running really rough. Feels like it did when timing needed adjusting. Confused!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 14 at 18:32
Assuming the new coil is the correct 1 and wires are on the correct side, doesn't make much sense.
Is the dizzy lose by any chance and has been disturbed, and are the points sparking when it turns over. Points could have been adjusted to make it run with the old coil.

Bit of trial and error here but we will get there.
LT28 1979 2.0 Pampas Nevada Camper LPG 93K, 1980 T3 A/C Camper 98K,1994 RRC 3.9 LPG 120k , 1998 Audi A6 Est 2.5 V6 diesel 127k

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 14 at 21:32
I just copied where the wires were on the old coil, it's not the same make but was sent to me as the right one... could the timing need to be set different for different coils? (Or should I buy a new coil same make as old?)
The dizzy has an electronic conversion, could the dizzy itself be worn?
Farmer has told me to run engine with hose pipe running in to expansion tank to flush radiator through, is this safe to do?!
Thanks for your help :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LTCamper89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 14 at 22:27
What AndyT meant about the timing being set for the old coil, is if they decided it was rough it may have been advanced/retarded to suit the condition of the coil, and therefore helped it run a little better.

Distributors do wear, especially after thirty years, and that will make a difference to the pickups and timing, with electronic ignition. Points tend to be more accurate since EI does not necessarily follow the correct advance curve.

?Do they have a condenser? Old bike stuff, so may not be applicable.

Getting there.Thumbs Up

Never done the hosepipe trick, so would not like to comment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mat_the_cat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 00:18
Flushing the radiator through with a hosepipe MAY clean out any deposits in there and help the engine run cooler. But it would only help your cutting out IF it was overheating (which the gauge suggest it is not) and IF the overheating was the cause of the problem. There are probably better things you could spend your time on! (And there would be no need to have the engine running to flush the radiator).

The cause may well be heat related, but not necessarily overheating if you see what I mean. It's obviously difficult to diagnose blind, and now you seem to have a second problem too!

"Feels like it did when timing needed adjusting"
The fact you've had the timing adjusted, and now it seems like it has changed again, makes me wonder if you do have a fault in the distributor. Maybe a broken advance weight spring perhaps, allowing the baseplate the points are on to move around?

FWIW, intermittent coil problems I've come across have been worse under load so gut feeling says the coil may be OK. Might be worth sticking the old one back on to see whether the backfiring and rough running stop, but I can't see how changing the coil alone would cause that.

The initial problem *may* be fuel vaporisation. Modern petrol is more volatile than it used to be, so solder vehicles are more prone to this even if everything is A1. If you were moving slowly, there would be little fuel being pumped so consequently it's sat in the hot engine bay for longer. The engine bay will be that little bit warmer as there is less cooling airflow, so that may cause the fuel to vaporise and not be pumped by the fuel pump, especially if the original pump is getting tired.

IF this is the problem it could be helped by re-routing fuel pipes, and/or fitting a fuel return line if there isn't one as standard, or fitting an electric pump near the tank. This puts the fuel under pressure rather than trying to suck it, which makes vaporisation problems worse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 03:07
This is a bit difficult without being able to check what the timing is set to etc, but regardless of the setting the garage had it running for a bit before problems re-occurred.
LT's are really simple so it can only be spark or fuel.

Don't go spending lots of money on a new dizzy etc until we have done a few checks.
Ignore rad for now.

What I'd like to do is start it from cold and see what happens as it warms up.

As suggested I'd put the old coil back on for now. Only seen it once but the coil I bought for the RR had connections reversed. Unlikely but worth checking.
Also check that all the connections are in good condition.

Air getting into fuel lines:-

Fuel pump is in the tank and the connections are on the top so you can't check those, but you can check that all the other clips on the fuel pipes are tight and none of the pipes are split or look old.
Hopefully garage changed them all when they fitted the tank.

Engine bay:-

Undo clip and remove the air intake from top of carb.
Depending on carb there will be a wire for either the auto choke or fuel cut off.
Check that it is connected and in good condition.
Years ago the fuel shut off valve on mine came lose and caused all sorts of problems as it let air in.
Check that the nuts holding the carb on are tight.

Have a look in the top of the carb and check that the choke flap is closed. It should gradually open as the engine warms up.

See if it starts and if so leave it running (Choke will be on) just rev it occasionally and note how it runs (any backfiring, spluttering etc). If there are problems fit a new condenser (£7 ish) and try again.

Once the engine is up to temp choke should be off (check that choke flap is open), how does it run now. With the engine cover off heat should not cause fuel vapourisation.

If it's running ok, cover back on and take for a test drive.

If it's not and you have checked everything let us know.

LT28 1979 2.0 Pampas Nevada Camper LPG 93K, 1980 T3 A/C Camper 98K,1994 RRC 3.9 LPG 120k , 1998 Audi A6 Est 2.5 V6 diesel 127k

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 06:07
Ok thanks everyone, will get to work and report back.

Andy mentioning air intake reminded me the the garage man said he took it off to get through emissions for mot..?
Don't know why they adjusted timing, they said they don't have a strobe so did it by ear, it had been running really well for last 2 years since tune up man did it.
Thanks again
I did ask them to change all hoses when they did tank so hopefully they did! But will check
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mat_the_cat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 07:54
Good advice there Andy. I had assumed the pump was an engine driven one, so the fact it's in the tank makes vapourisation less likely.
Originally posted by AndyT AndyT wrote:

Don't go spending lots of money on a new dizzy etc until we have done a few checks.

Agreed - I hope I didn't come across as suggesting you should buy one on the basis of a blind guess!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 08:25
No mate you didn't but I've seen too many people fitting new parts in desperation, when a few simple checks are all they need.

Timing will probably need looking at, should be 5deg btdc @900rpm and at the same time mechanical and vac advance checking. 10mins with a strobe light. Can post up details if needed.

As regards mot and air intake, could be a dirty air filter or fumes from breather.
If its the latter disconnect before MOT, plug back in afterwards.
Old 4 pots are pretty bullet proof but they do have to work hard in the LT.

At the moment my favourites are the condenser and the king lead, both are cheap to replace.
LT28 1979 2.0 Pampas Nevada Camper LPG 93K, 1980 T3 A/C Camper 98K,1994 RRC 3.9 LPG 120k , 1998 Audi A6 Est 2.5 V6 diesel 127k

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 11:53
Do I have a condenser as my points have been converted to electronic?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angelina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 11:56
Had a look at pipes going to and from tank, all new and tight on there, looked at air filter which is clean, will do some more later, was short of time this morning.

My carb is a pierburg 1b1 and it has a manual choke.

Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 15:25
I think you will still have a condenser but can't be certain as I've never fitted a conversion.
It's a metal cylinder shape attached to the side of the dizzy.

Sounds like your carb has been converted to manual choke at some point so I can't say if it has a shut off valve. If there isn't a wire leading to the carb Just have a look around to see if there is a bare spade terminal anywhere. I'll try and look up the carb to see.

Principle is the same though, check that when you pull the choke on the flap closes in the carb, and when choke is off the flap is wide open.
LT28 1979 2.0 Pampas Nevada Camper LPG 93K, 1980 T3 A/C Camper 98K,1994 RRC 3.9 LPG 120k , 1998 Audi A6 Est 2.5 V6 diesel 127k

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