I have a customer, who, for the moment will remain nameless, unless he wants to out himself.

he bought a van, with a EJ 22 lump fitted.

The engine knocks, a bottom end rattle.

So, he has another engine to fit to it before it dies.

Rather than fit yet another unknown second hand scrap yard engine I thought it would be prudent just to see how much a recon engine would be.

Er, no one seems to want to touch them!

The best I could find was Vege, who don't offer this engine but reluctantly saisd they would take an engine and rebuild it, to the tune of £3095 plus VAT!

Now i didn't spend that much time looking, made a few phone calls to the usual suspects but has anyone ever bought a recon/rebuild Subaru engine?

A mate had to get one for his subaru, He got his from API at leaminton Spa, and his is as sweet as a nut!

I'm afraid I'd go with the Subaru engine every time. They're design and reliability is always going to surpass a 1940s base engine design which has been updated.

Just because one engine knocks due to a lack of servicing from a previous owner doesn't mean the whole subaru engine design is poor. I keep seeing T3s advertised with blown engines with the same problem of rusted cylinder head studs.

Granted to do the engine conversion properly is going to cost more than buying a new VW engine so that's up to the particular owner.

Just my 2 pence worth

MG

to me if i had a blown dg/dj and i was thinking of more power i would be thinking about a few things...

miles im gona do...

what will it cost to fix..

ive had loads of wbx engines and like the way the drive, but not the fuel consumption. with the price of fuel going up and up.... the amount i use the van would be the biggest factor..  

subaru engines are great for maga miles, but realy they are as specialist as wbx lumps,

im only on my first t3 diesel but i realy think its the way to go, as diesels can do the miles too, im not sure as to cost comparisons but i would think going tdi plus doing the needed gearbox mods would compair to doing a subaru conversion..

I think you misunderstood what i was getting at.

To me you buy a VW, not a Subaru.

When your WBX goes it's much cheaper to get a recon VW engine than a recon Subaru.

These Subaru engines seem okay in the short term, but when these engines start going wrong, which they are and will do then the initial "cheap" scrap yard engine is no longer a cheap alternative.

I just wish people would spend a few quid and develope their WBX engines, 'cos Im sure that similar if not more can be eeked from a WBX, and more reliably, cheaper and it's VW.

Just my thoughts.

Baxter wrote: I think you misunderstood what i was getting at. To me you buy a VW, not a Subaru. When your WBX goes it's much cheaper to get a recon VW engine than a recon Subaru. These Subaru engines seem okay in the short term, but when these engines start going wrong, which they are and will do then the initial "cheap" scrap yard engine is no longer a cheap alternative. I just wish people would spend a few quid and develope their WBX engines, 'cos Im sure that similar if not more can be eeked from a WBX, and more reliably, cheaper and it's VW. Just my thoughts.

So when are you taking delivery of your dyno

I admit it would be very interesting to find out how much more power could be had from a stock 2.1 with a lairy cam and a nice exhaust system...

MG

Richard Henry motors in Bradford specialise in Jap motors say it is easier and cheaper to replace than repair these engines because of the cost in labour and parts.

Hello Si

Baxter wrote: I think you misunderstood what i was getting at. yup I totally did To me you buy a VW, not a Subaru. fair point can't agrue with that! When your WBX goes it's much cheaper to get a recon VW engine than a recon Subaru. These Subaru engines seem okay in the short term, but when these engines start going wrong, which they are and will do then the initial "cheap" scrap yard engine is no longer a cheap alternative. as you know Si too well, people just buy 2nd hand engines cheap or otherwise with little or no knowledge about its past history then chuck it in and expect things to fine from there on. We have all done this(in the past!)- it sometimes works out, mostly it doesn't, hence in the long run costs more. IMO, I think most folk are scared of the wbx engine, cos of their issues, namely the head studs rusting out. up til recently they have been costly to repair replace. so people have been scared away from em. but if they are serviced their a good engine, just like all engines. But as most of us know all engines have design problems and their own querks, again scoobies engines are good but not trouble free(on our 2nd one!) Our uk turbo wagon (just about to be put up 4 sale) tuned to 281bhp 106k on the clock, but well maintained, had suffered the 1st & 2nd below issues lst yr. but put right at a fair cost! leaky cam covers a real pain! not that expensive front oil seal leak, drop oil on the zorst, burns then stinks, has to be sorted, expenive job! they seize at about 60k, grey imports very common! reasons but thats another rant altogether   ever seen a crank from one of these engines, well they snap in half!   the point of my rant, i believe doing engine conversions is all well and good but its all about getting the gearing matched correctly, to make the engine run more or less in the same manor as it did from factory. then it should last,otherwise the power band is wrong or if they rev to high for prolonged driving due to crappy gearing they go bang! I just wish people would spend a few quid and develope their WBX engines, 'cos Im sure that similar if not more can be eeked from a WBX, and more reliably, cheaper and it's VW. just interested Si what tuning have you seen on these, how far can they be safely pushed before internals need upgrading. i personally enjoy playing with vw lego and not mixing it with mega blocks too! Just my thoughts.

Yours is a good and interesting point, be good to get the general vibe here.

ps sorry for the rant, but a very interesting topic

Not a rant, just bored of people condemming the WBX as expensive only to replace it with non VW and more expensive, with what seems to be not much of a gain in the reliabity stakes.

Seems very few people will tune the WBX and I 99% sure that similar gains can be had from a WBX, and not cost as much and be more reliable

Fastbus wrote: If you want a cheaper increase lets say from a 1.9 wbx, you could convert your van within a couple of hours to a 2.1dj. £500.00 should get you a half decent complete dj engine and 32bhp extra power.

I agree, have gone down this route, I would say more than a couple of hours work though by the time you've swapped the loom out, changed the fuel filter, lines and fitted the electric pump.

if there were easy to get wbx tuning psrts i would have them..

i always wanted to get a 2.1 on a weber alfa setup, i did start building an exhaust in stainless, still have all the tubes and flanges and i realy should finish it..

the 1 downer is that half the upgrades meen the using more fuel, with the right work ie a more modern inj system more power and better mpg could be posible..

T3ADICT wrote: if there were easy to get wbx tuning psrts i would have them..

lighten and balance, any machine shop should be able to do that.

porting, again...

Cam, Type 1 stuff as i am lead to believe.

eastfalia do a nice tuned exhaust and Germ man mark is also developing one.

It's all out there.

Baxter wrote: Seems very few people will tune the WBX and I 99% sure that similar gains can be had from a WBX, and not cost as much and be more reliable

Nah to all that clobber, chuck a bigger lump in, and save yourself some time to play with the little un.

Scruff daddy, just noticed that.

My answer is......Buy a T4

I really like vw WBX engines, Ive had several in pieces and they are far easier to put together and set up than Scooby.

Get a good vw engine to start and jobs a good un. 

i considered going down the subaru route when my engine (2.1 mv)went kaput (head gasket leak - both heads pitted surfaces + cracked)

after speaking to a few people and weighing up the costs decided to replace the cylider heads and replace any worn parts on the old engine rather than buying a refurb or going down the scooby route - it's been bob on ever since.

there's a performance chip available from the states which adds a bit more oomph and supposedly improved fuel economy but this can only be used with specific bosch ecu on an mv with dijifant.

http://tinyurl.com/2ygsfx - http://tinyurl.com/2ygsfx

guys, just reading the thread, I work for a main dealer for Subaru and have found the EJ20 and EJ22 engines are extremely reliable engine- only if they are serviced properly!!

if you need genuine parts for them, maybe able to source new genuine parts for conversion etc.

I have comtemplated conversion from my DJ 2.1... on a cost versus reward basis, and not having a lot of time, I can't make it pay-is it really going to save you that much money in fuel savings or running cost?

just my 5 peneth worth!

just out of interest, why are there very few modern vw engines transplanted, all the equipment to ditch the fly-by-wire throttle is available off the shelf.

All the people I've met with a modern engine had transponder issues but modern chippers will remove this from your chipset if requested.

We've been using stand alone management systems for years on our race cars and wondered why everyone seems to run away from using say, a 1.8t motor (150bhp) for example in their bus??

I'd love to install a 1.8T 20V engine in a syncro as the power band is exactly where you want, for example the 1996 Audi A4 150bhp has max torque 155 ftlbs from 1750-4600rpm! Not a buzz box at all. This car also is throttle cable operated and doesn't have an immobiliser unlike post 1997 cars. It's probably the only 1.8T 20V engine which would fit due to the later engine blocks having a different design which incorporates the waterpump internally.

It should be a quiet engine, powerful and reliable with diagnostics which most vw/audi garages can now plug into.

Obviously the Diesel setup would be needed but there would be some cost with the chargecooler/piping but the gearing would probably cope albeit from a TD or 2.1 Petrol.

Whether it would fit under the standard engine lid or not remains to be seen.

MG

Tee3 wrote: Audi 5 pot is the only conversion I would consider. I once thought that a Subaru was the way to go, and cosidered it when the water jacket seals needed doing on my old van. It was Simon who made me realise that if i was in the middle of some foreign country, and my great, super powerful ultra reliable jap engined german van stopped playing, it would be very unlikely that anyone would go near it with a barge pole... VW wouldnt... Subaru wouldnt... your average joe garage would be terrified of it.  Whereas with a VW unit, i could just have it in the nearest VW dealer and they'd sort it.

have to agree.. i luv the 5cyl audi engines.. great and strong with the great torque.. plus good for mega miles..

only downside to them is that big lump of weight even further out back..

mr bricolage wrote: In fact most people in the Subaru garages i have spoken to can't wait to get their mitts on a VW with a scooby motor and have been more than happy to help. I'm not sure how many garages on the continent feel the same, obviously someone you've spoken to has checked

A. have you ever been to France?!  Trying to get them to do anything is hard work nevermind owt outta the ordinary!

B. Can't really vouch for the rest of Europe, but having lived in Chamonix twice, I can't ever recall seeing a Subaru nevermind a Subaru garage, and if they are going to be anywhere they are gunna be in the hills right?

probably me not looking for them aswell, so they may be there, I just never take any notice!

I think it's interesting, in the years to come, it will be unusual and/or rare to have a factory power plant.  Whats funny is, I think it will be way "cooler" to have and unmolested T3 over some bastard motor swap.  In fact, I am beginning to think motor swaps, back to factory, will become in vogue.  Is my bias showing? 

I suppose it will be like finding a bone stock 83' 84' GTI/golf that has not been abused.

MC

Only perfectionist's will want to go back to a standard lump after experiencing more power from a modern engine.

Cant wait to get the TDi back in the van.

1.9DG slow, 1.6TD slow IMHO

VWlewis wrote: As a mechanical engineer let me chip in .. (no pun intended) ... VW engine product development over the years has taken a evolution route - this is obvious from the boxer engine which started in T1's (1200 cc, 44 bhp?) with a single carburettor and ended in T3 (2.1litre, 112 bhp) as injection engines.  See details http://type2.com/library/identifi/boxeng2.htm - here :

1131cc 25bhp from 1945-1953

VWlewis wrote: For me the only answer is to transplant a standard more powerful engine into a T3.. but make sure the whole drivetrain can take the power (gearbox, clutch, driveshafts - especially splines)  The South African VW 2.4i & 2.6i engines might be interesting!

2.3i,2.5i and 2.6i engines in South African vans.

Just to change the slant on this discussion a bit!

I am changing my 1.9dg engine to a 2.1dj engine over the winter, however, I don't want the Trundletruck to go particularly fast. I just want to be able to get up hills better and travel at 70/75 all day, but above all I would like to go much further for the same amount of petrol and try and be more environmentally friendly!

When I rebuild this engine, that is sitting in the garage, what do I need to do to it? Has anyone got any suggestions about chipping, exhausts, valves, etc? Is there any way of running the dj on regular fuel without retarding the ignition and losing some power?

It would appear that all the engine changing options end up with using more petrol and I don't need masses of power anyway.

All I want is a long legged, reliable camper. Any ideas?

Azzaaaaaaaaaaaa what were you intending to do about a gear box?

Baxter wrote: The best I could find was Vege, who don't offer this engine but reluctantly saisd they would take an engine and rebuild it, to the tune of £3095 plus VAT! Now i didn't spend that much time looking, made a few phone calls to the usual suspects but has anyone ever bought a recon/rebuild Subaru engine?

just found this place on the net, they say they do scooby rebuilts:

http://www.foresterspares.co.uk/ - http://www.foresterspares.co.uk/

and i think this place does too:

http://www.gradea-subaru.co.uk/ - http://www.gradea-subaru.co.uk/

Tee3 wrote: Audi 5 pot is the only conversion I would consider. I once thought that a Subaru was the way to go, and cosidered it when the water jacket seals needed doing on my old van. It was Simon who made me realise that if i was in the middle of some foreign country, and my great, super powerful ultra reliable jap engined german van stopped playing, it would be very unlikely that anyone would go near it with a barge pole... VW wouldnt... Subaru wouldnt... your average joe garage would be terrified of it.  Whereas with a VW unit, i could just have it in the nearest VW dealer and they'd sort it. Thats what convinced me that whilst on paper the subaru conversion might tick all the boxes... the reality of using one could be a nightmare. And i just couldnt live with the mile of wire coiled up under the back seat

Arn't audi 5 pots really crappy on fuel tho?  In the for sale forum on here some1 was selling a 2.3 5 pot quattro coz it was expensive to run.  Sticking that engine into something brick shaped would surely give even crappier mpg?  One of the reasons i like the idea of subaru conv is the reported 35mpg... unless people have been lying to me!!!!  What mpg would you expect from a 5 pot conv? 

A.Muppet wrote: Arn't audi 5 pots really crappy on fuel tho?  In the for sale forum on here some1 was selling a 2.3 5 pot quattro coz it was expensive to run.  Sticking that engine into something brick shaped would surely give even crappier mpg?  One of the reasons i like the idea of subaru conv is the reported 35mpg... unless people have been lying to me!!!!  What mpg would you expect from a 5 pot conv?

My SA 2.5i 5 cylinder Caravelle does approx 30mpg and just think if i had it LPG'd...that would be 136bhp,105mph and equivalent to approx 60mpg....so not that crappy.

the early mechanical inj 5cyl engines are a not as good as the later electronic inj mpg wise... but they still aint bad.. when i ran my old 2.0 5cyl passat down to spain it made 35mpg + and that was a older one.

stick a K&N on them and they sound great.....

• Increase in engine power
• Increased mileage per gallon
• Extremely smooth running
• Cheap to replace
• Cruise @ 80mph all day and all night
• Easy to service
• Removed 90% of water pipe work and joints from the engine bay
• Lasts sooooo long

if the Subaru Conversion wasn't so reliable, cheap and engines being so redly available for affordable money than our friends over the pond would not have adopted this conversion as the conversion of choice.

Hasn't this got more to do with their wasserboxer cylinder heads dissolving, which doesn't seem to be an issue in the UK. Fuel problems?

Cheap to replace Cruise @ 80mph all day and all night Easy to service

My DJ does that, (Admitedly Shortened List) + I can check and fill the oil without removing the hatch. Why is the subaru cheap to replace, they cost the same as a WBX secondhand don't they?

Of course the 2.1 WBX is the ethical path but if you do go that route then get an original brand new VW plastic wrapped unit direct from VW.

Not sure what ethics have got to do with it, but I don't think these 2.1's are available from VW anymore, but could be mis-informed. Why are all rebuilds so bad?

Oops came across a bit grumpy that, sorry!

Nah, I meant the wbx had head problems Stateside - kept dissolving or sommat

Why's it the original German design? Cos it's a flat four?

Ghia wrote: I'd love to install a 1.8T 20V engine in a syncro as the power band is exactly where you want, for example the 1996 Audi A4 150bhp has max torque 155 ftlbs from 1750-4600rpm! Not a buzz box at all. This car also is throttle cable operated and doesn't have an immobiliser unlike post 1997 cars. It's probably the only 1.8T 20V engine which would fit due to the later engine blocks having a different design which incorporates the waterpump internally. It should be a quiet engine, powerful and reliable with diagnostics which most vw/audi garages can now plug into. Obviously the Diesel setup would be needed but there would be some cost with the chargecooler/piping but the gearing would probably cope albeit from a TD or 2.1 Petrol. Whether it would fit under the standard engine lid or not remains to be seen. MG

my question and yours have been answered coz it's been done already http://www.stephansautohaus.com/vanagon-division/ - http://www.stephansautohaus.com/vanagon-division/   found this on 'beetsport' member profile after seeing his syncro in bus park and noticing a 1.8t badge on the back.

looks good to me

Buttercup wrote: What about those run an Air Cooled motor and don't want radiator grills in the front of the truck? If the Scoob was air-cooled i'd have one already!

A while back there was a split with a subaru engine in it. He'd put the a couple of radiators between the chassis rails and that apparebtly worked fine.

Plu you can always put a faux spare wheel on the front to hide the grille like those horrific Brazilian bays that Danbury do.