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Dynamat in yer Doors?

Printed From: The Brick-yard
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Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 07:55
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Topic: Dynamat in yer Doors?
Posted By: PaulG
Subject: Dynamat in yer Doors?
Date Posted: 06 Feb 08 at 10:21

Hi Guys,

I searched, but did not (quite) find!

Still on the stereo install subject.  Has anyone fitted Dynamat (or equivalent) in their cab doors, and does this pose a potential problem of absorbing and holding moisture? (Moisture = rust later on!)

Meanwhile, I will go and research this stuff on the web!

PaulG



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)



Replies:
Posted By: monsho
Date Posted: 06 Feb 08 at 12:52
I used that flash banding type stuff from diy stores, heated it up with hot air
gun and stuck it down - it don't shift and makes a big difference to the
resonance in the doors, much cheaper than dynamat and does the same
job.

Its designed to stop water getting beyond it on roofs, so it wont let any
water past it in your doors!


Posted By: T3surf
Date Posted: 06 Feb 08 at 14:00
I have used the same stuff Monsho has mentioned in several past cars and about to fit it in the bus too. Works a treat!

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If It's Got Tits Or Wheel Nuts It'll Give You Trouble!!!


Posted By: Chappy
Date Posted: 06 Feb 08 at 22:58

Sorry to be a dullard boys - what's flash banding??

I'm doin a speaker installation on my van soon (sony 110w door speakers with matching amp and head unit) - should I consider this while I'm at it?



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Back in the slow lane, yeah!


Posted By: monsho
Date Posted: 06 Feb 08 at 23:01
its the self adhesive bitumen stuff you get for roofs from B&Q and the like -
just pop in and say 'have you any flash banding good sir' and if they're worth
their salt I reckon they'll come good!

makes a big ol difference....


Posted By: Chappy
Date Posted: 06 Feb 08 at 23:08
nice one - cheers!

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Back in the slow lane, yeah!


Posted By: Baxter
Date Posted: 07 Feb 08 at 20:56

Motor factors sell sound deadening pads for a couple of quid each.

Caravelle, well anything other than transporters already have it in from the factory, it's only the lower spec commercials that don't have it, thats why the doors don't sound all rattly on passenger carrying vans.

if you put some it it will kill loads of noise and your doors will shut with a nice thud.



Posted By: thenaylortribe
Date Posted: 07 Feb 08 at 21:03

i used this stuff.

Acoustically better than Dynamat and a damn sight cheaper!

 

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/soundproofing/t60.htm - http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/soundproofing/t60.htm



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If you can't say something nice, say something nasty but funny...


Posted By: geeza
Date Posted: 10 Feb 08 at 15:08

You used to be able to buy sound deadening in a spray format. Were two colours depending on thickness I think. Red/blue? Came out like a coating of rubber

Me personally would go with the flashing and any part you cant get into or stiock to cover with the spray.

 

Hopefully its still available



Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 10:39

Update - Well I went for the Dynamat soution, basically because they had it for sale in Halfords, one ICE 'specialist' in Coventry did not have a member of staff who had heard of the concept (only a fellow customer!), and the traffic was too heavy to get to the only other place nearby that I know - so I decided to just go for it!

I have stuck half of the sheet to the inside of each cab door skin, in the front half of the door, as high up as I could reach and the mat would fit.  On reassembly I would say that the sound is better controlled, and it somehow gives the speakers a chance to work better.  It does not however make any noticable difference to the amount of sound that 'leaks' out through the skins to outside.  So people still stare at you at traffic lights etc!

So there you have it.  You pays your money, you takes your choice.

Next step.  Speakers over the R'N'R bed.

See you,

PaulG



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 11:32
Guys
Bear in mind that materials like Dynamat do NOT deaden sound.

[techie-mode]
Dynamat, flashing tape and all other bitumen-type materials simply increase the mass of the panel they're attached to, which serves to lower the resonant frequency of the panel. If sufficient material is attached (generally not an awful lot) then the resonant frequency is lowered below normal listening frequencies and the panel stops "ringing" when you play music on the stereo. It also reduces the "thrumming" noise, when you're driving along
[/techie-mode]

In real terms, Dynamat stops your bus booming. It's brilliant on any flat surface more than 6"sq or so, to stop it resonating. What Dynamat et al does NOT do is reduce the amount of noise being passed to the outside world

If you want to do that, you need to increase the sound-absorption of each panel - which generally means either sticking egg-trays over the inside of every panel or covering all Dynamatted areas in self-adhesive foam. NOT advisable, as this will increase the moisture retention in our precious busses.

Granted, if you put more than one layer of Dynamat etc on a panel, it will have an effect on the sound absorption, but at the expense of a lot of extra weight.

My advice would be:
Dynamat is heavy, expensive and over the top for a bus that is essentially an underpowered, noisy box on wheels (that I love and wouldn't be without
Foam-based panels are cheaper and lighter, but the risk of water-retention is too great for me to recommend
Flashing tape is cheap, flexible and light. It can be applied to pretty much any flat area and has a significant effect on the resonant frequencies of the panels. You can put two layers on (in a criss-cross arrangement for greatest effect) if you're really keen on resonant-noise reduction, but do keep in mind that this won't directly affect ambient noise levels
Ambient noise can be most significantly reduced by concentrating on:
1) the storage areas under the front seats (these resonate like a wotsit - I have pillows in mine at the moment and the difference is HUGE)
2) Flashing tape on the angled section behind the rear seat. This will reduce resonance from the engine. Ideally, build a cupboard under your rear seats as well - this will give you storage and increased baffling from the noise
3) Sound-deadening the doors. This will reduce wind-rush a lot
4) If your engine-lid is exposed, you can benefit by covering this in carpet, but make sure you haven't got any water-leaks in the back first ;)

Final recommendation is a product recommendation. Second skin make a water-based sound-deadening "paint" called Spectrum, and a thicker version called Sludge. I have used Sludge on my bay window to reduce resonance on the roof and door panels. It can be daubed on with a paintbrush, dries in about 10 minutes in warm weather and is solid in a few hours. It's got lots of rust-inhibitors in too, so it's old-bus friendly. It's cheaper than Dynamat and even flashing tape, can be splodged anywhere you can get a brush and is very good at reducing resonance

You can get it from http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk and no, I don't work there ;)

Richard

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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 11:51

Hi Globbits/Richard,

Good post mate!  What you've written there brings together a lot of the salient points and puts them into one place.  Good for future reference!

I must say that I am a little confused by Dynamat's products and their claims about them (if I understood the correctly).  They seem to suggest that the foil covering on the mat blocks sound transmission.  But then when I broke open the pack there was no foil on the mat.  Must be a different Dynamat product?  They aslo suggest you stick it to the back of the door cards.  It's too thick, the door cards wouldn't fit back properly!

You are right about the risk of moisture retention in anything more foam-like that the Dynamat, or egg boxes or whatever.  That's why in the end I just went for the Dynamat and be done with it!

My T3 is a camper, so R'n'R bed in the back, but the pillows under the cab seats looks like a simple thing to try?  Where I work I have a lot of packing materials to dispose of... might be something crop up there that I could use...?

Could you expand a bit on " 3) Sound-deadening the doors. This will reduce wind-rush a lot ".  Are we talking draft exclusion?

Thanks again for all the info in your post though.  I think it should help others in the future.

PaulG



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 12:10
Hey Paul

My bus is away having a recon engine fitted (bless those DG's and their head gaskets ) but as soon as it's back, I shall be soundproofing the whole thing and putting a reasonable stereo system in. I'll put a log of my progress on the tech section, so you can keep an eye on what gets done and how

For reference, Dynamat do two main versions - "normal" Dynamat and Dynamat extreme. From memory, the major difference is that the Extreme version is:
  • Slightly lighter
  • Foil-backed, for greater sound-reflection (reduces noise passed to the outside world)
  • Twice the price
Regarding sound-deadening doors, there are a number of things to focus on here:

1) Resonance - Reducing the ringing from the door panel. This is "simply" a matter of putting Dynamat/flashing tape onto the flat metal areas of the door

2) Ambient noise - Reducing the noise from the outside world. This is essentially wind-rush, from the air going past the door as you're whooshing along, not draft-exclusion. Again, load-lining the panel (putting on Dynamat etc) will do as much as you can about this

3) Reducing speaker resonance - If your speaker's not solidly mounted, when it moves the cone to produce noise, some of the movement will be lost, in shaking the speaker itself. You lose bass more than you lose midrange/treble, making the sound in the front weak

This last one's a tricky one, as the speaker is mounted to the door card, which is essentially a flimsy bit of hardboard. Dynamat's advice, about sticking the material to the door card itself, is to resolve this situation. If you make the door card heavier (or rather increase its mass) then it won't wiggle as much when the speaker attached to it wiggles. End result, greater output from the speaker.

Of course, the problem is that the door card is attached to the bloody door and, if you put a ton of Dynamat behind it, you can't fit it back onto the door! Solutions here include:
  • Glueing further sections of MDF in front of (or behind, if you can) the door card, as close to the speaker as you can. This will stiffen up the panel, without dramatically affecting the weight
  • Sticking Dynamat etc to the back face of the metalwork around where the speaker is fitted in the door card and/or screwing the speaker through the door card into the metalwork. These give the speaker something more solid to resonate against
  • Making new door cards out of thicker timber and/or making full speakers boxes to hide into the doors, out of fibreglass. (This will be my weapon of choice, but only because I'm a stereo nut and am going to try and fit two pairs of 6.5" speakers into the doors )
Bus should be back during the week. I'll start a sound-deadening and stereo-installation thread as soon as I get on the case!

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 14:47

Thanks again Richard, you are obviously way ahead of me on this subject.  Re: Door card flimsiness... I wonder if a thin sheet of metal in the sandwich between the speaker cone and the door card would help?  It could be glued to the back of the door card and that would stiffen up the imediate area of the speaker?  I think Dynamat would be too thick, although I noticed they sell a so-called 'Door Kit'

At the end of the day, there is only so much you can do isn't there?  My intention to add a pair of speakers to the rear of the camper should enable me to take some of the emphasis away from the fronts (presently the only ones fitted).

How about seperate tweeters, high in the doors.  Can these be retro-fitted to existing speakers (with a crossover circuit of course) do you know?  Or, do they tend to be part of a speaker 'package'.

Ta for now,

PaulG



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 16:00
I'm only ahead because I've been playing with car audio for far too long  My T3 experience is still very new! (Only had mine 6 months now) I'll answer your questions as best I can though

Regarding the door cards bear in mind that what you're trying to do is present a more solid base to the speaker. Whether you achive this with bits of wood or metal glued to the back of the card, by screwing the speaker to the metal frame of the door or by putting Dynamat/flashing tape on the back faces of the metalwork the door card clips to, all you're actually doing is making it more solid. What you won't be doing is making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Bear in mind that the factory-fit speakers are old, small and low power and quality. They will never shake your fillings out, no matter how much solidity you give the door

My advice would be to treat this as two separate exercises. First, get the van sound-deadened to a point where you're happy with the background noise and boominess (or lack of) and only then consider what you're going to do stereo-wise.

Which leads nicely into your second question. Yes, you can get aftermarket tweeter kits, which will allow you to connect a tweeter to your existing speakers. But since they cost around £15-£25 and you can buy a component set (midrange and tweeter) for similar money, consider going the whole hog and treating yourself to a nice but inexpensive set of components. You won't regret it

To give you an idea, this is my plans for the bus so far:
  • Flashing tape into storage areas under front seats (reduce resonance, as described earlier)
  • Build fibreglass "boxes" to fit into the storage areas (giving more soundproofing and more storage in one go)
  • Flashing tape across the boot floor and angled section (already done this - made a big difference to engine "roar")
  • Second skin Sludge into door panels - probably two layers (reduce resonance and exterior noise inside the doors)
  • Make new door cards out of 3mm or 5mm ply (for a more solid speaker-mounting)
  • Build fibreglass box into hole at the base of the door, for 6.5" midrange speaker (f/g box is to improve speaker response and keep it protected from the worst of the water ingress through the door)
  • Build MDF/fibreglass boxes to fit underneath rear seat (mine's a Caravelle) for subwoofers (gives extra sound-deadening too)
  • Sit back and investigate the noisiest places left. I expect these to be the floor section in the middle, followed by the tailgate, then the sliding doors, then the front panel behind the dash
That should keep me going for a month or two!


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 16:49

Sounds like you are going to be busy!  .  What you probably didn't know (from other threads), is that I have just installed a Blaupunkt 'London' Headunit, and Blaupunkt THx542 speakers (130mm Two-Way co-axials, in the cab doors) plus the Dynamat as well now of course.  The headunit is wired to the leisure battery, and the speakers have 2.5mm 'Bluespot' speaker cable (instead of the Blaupunkt supplied thin stuff.  Blaupunkt don't seem to make seperate tweeters, although there are already tweeters in the THx542's of course.  With hindsight I should have bought the THc542's (with seperate tweeters) instead, and may still upgrade to those later on, if I'm still not happy.

I plan to put Blaupunkt THx693 6 x 9's or THx572 5 x 7's above the bed, in the bottom of a wooden overhead locker that I usually have filled with towels etc.  Firing downwards.

The beauty of the Blaupunkt headunit (IMHO) is that, 1) it fits the DIN slot's 150mm depth limit (the limit is an issue on a watercooled vans where VW robbed some space for the water filled heater parts when they went from aircooled to watercooled) and 2) it's vaguely relevant to a (German) VW vehicle, and 3) they are at least half-decent quality, 4) it has the features I wanted.

So, in summary, I'm way ahead (I hope!) of factory fit gear, with some idea for where to go next, and some acceptance that I may have to rethink the door speakers.  The Dynamat 'experiments' are just that really, and the whole install is a project within the overall project of restoring and improving the van.  Plus, there is some notional limit to my budget!

It's great trading these posts with you, you obviously know your stuff!  Hope to meet you somewhere some day when the shows get going.  I might have finished the install by then!

Have a look here:- http://www.bluespot.co.uk/default.asp - http://www.bluespot.co.uk/default.asp  and you can see what I'm talking about, Blaupunkt-wise.

Cheers,

Paul.



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 17:11
Ah, the joys of axial speakers! Brilliant if you've got limited space and surprisingly good sound, if you aim them properly. As you've found though, their limitation is their benefit - that the tweeter's part of the main speaker!

Don't worry though - all's not lost. Blaupunkt's not a bad place to start (I used the Blaupunkt Casablanca CD and USB head unit for ages) but I wouldn't carry on with Blaupunkt speakers - there are much better options for your money. We'll come back to speakers in a bit though

Sounds like your next step is to reduce road noise - the storage below the front seats and the engine lid area being the major contributors. Once you've done them, get someone else to take the van for a drive in a car park, with you able to move around and find the noisy bits. If you find the noisy bits aren't too intrusive then yay. Otherwise, deal with them accordingly.

Once you're happy with the background noise levels, then it's time to consider your speaker setup. My first point about that would be to ask what you want from rear speakers. If you're after music in the back of the van, for passengers or for while you're "relaxing" in bed then I have nothing against 6*9's. BUT (and this is a huuuuuuuge but) if you're after rear speakers to aKind sir, you have an e-mail.ent the fronts while you're driving you do NOT want 6*9's. Really.  Really really.  Really really REALLY

6"*9" speakers are a compromise speaker. They have a reasonable surface area main driver so they can produce fair quantities of bass and midrange. They then have one, two or three tweeter units of varying sizes, to provide high frequency stuff. When listened to at close-range (like in the front doors) the bass and midrange frequencies are pretty strong, so the speakers sound pretty potent. The problem is that, if you put them at the back of the van (or even the middle) the lower frequencies drop off quicker than the higher frequencies. So you end up with masses of tinny rubbish coming from the back which just gives you a headache

If you want to make your system sound better in the front of the van, for your own pleasure when driving, get a sub. Really. What it will do (when set up properly) is complement the lower frequencies from the front speakers, making them sound stronger. It won't drown out the music, nor make you deaf.

Honestly, don't bother with rear speakers, don't bother either with a massive or expensive sub. Just get a small one you can build into a cupboard. You won't regret it

On the other hand, if you want music in the back for chilling out to, go ahead with the 6*9's - just make sure they are NOT aimed towards the front of the bus

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: markpark
Date Posted: 11 Feb 08 at 20:52

Good to see a nice indepth thread with some tried and tested advice, Thanks Guys.

 

What about 6x9's in my parcel shelf, innit



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DJ T3 homrbrew camper and 98 LT 2.5 TDI crew van


Posted By: mr bricolage
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 09:09
Another point which has not been considered here is how to get the most bang for buck from your sound deadening material.

As Richard said the bus is a large resonating box and what you are trying to do is kill the resonance.

In order to do this you should consider where the majority of your resonance is coming from.

THE WHEELS ARE THE MAJOR SOURCE OF RESONANCE IN ANY VEHICLE

So if you concentrate your efforts around those areas you are likely to see the biggest improvements . Working your way out from the wheels is the best method.
So do the wheel arches first and underseat boxes then the upright panels nearby ie the doors and then work your way on to the larger panels between the B and C posts.

Pretty obvious when you think about it really.


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Euramobil Terestra


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 09:45
Good point Mr B

This is the argument behind putting pillows in the under-seat storage areas. It should be said though, when I changed from the nasty tyres that were on there to some softer compound "normal" tyres, the road noise dropped off dramatically!

As Mr Bricolage says, the largest source of noise ingress is from the tyres (assuming your engine/exhaust is in good nick). Focus on those areas to reduce exterior noise, but you're looking to absorb noise here, so will need to use foam/carpet/pillows etc. Bear in mind that whatever you use will possibly retain water near your precious metal bits. Use and/or rust-treat accordingly!

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 09:58

Morning!  I'm still digesting the overnight discussion guys, phew, what a post!!

Bearing in mind that I have a camper, with thermal insulation in its cavities, carpets, a bed, a mattress over the engine cover, cupboards full of stuff, sleeping bags etc. etc. I'm not sure I could add a whole lot more general damping/ sound insulation.  Engine is in good nick, and exhaust is brand new.  But I will review your ideas Mr. Bric.

Alloy wheels with new properly load-rated tyres are imminenet as well. (I had already noticed the tyre noise was fairly dominant from the factory spec van wheels and tyres)  also I reckon the plastic wheel trims resonate as well! (Might give it a go without them?)

Globbits' Speaker points...need to mull that over for a while.  I'm not sure about the sub route though yet.  I'm an acoustic folkie in his 50's don't you know!  (But I do sometimes rock as well  )

I'll get back to this later.  In the meantime, how do you wire in a sub innit?  (I haven't looked into this with the Blaupunkt info BTW)

PaulG



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 12:31
:D Don't worry about the wheel trims. Mr Bricolage is right though - the majority of what noise you hear from outside is essentially the noise of the rubber smacking on the tarmac, then the sound bouncing back up into the wheel wells and the like. Properly load-rated tyres are likely to be quite hard and will be noisy. But as long as you're ready for this and know what you're looking to do to resolve it, it won't matter. Just be aware of what's making your bus noisy and deal with it one area at a time.

As for a sub, they really aren't just about going thud. A badly setup sub will go thud - a well setup sub can barely be heard and will just make your main speakers sound much stronger. Of course, your typical dance fan will argue against this and that comes down to musical taste (and I enjoy an Underworld track as much as anyone) but they don't have to be the boomy things that we all assume them to be.

As for how to wire them up, they are an amplified speaker. They will either have their own amp or will need an external one. They therefore require a signal from the head unit (ideally a line-level signal if your h/u has pre-out cables, but not necessarily a requirement) and power from your battery. The sort of thing you'd be looking for would neither break the bank nor your battery/charging system.

If you're ever down the Portsmouth way, feel free to look me up and we'll discuss

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: rogerthecat
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 12:44
Brilliant thread chaps.

Have several sheets of sound deadening ready for the Westy and ScoobyVelle. Will follow advice re wheels out. Am expecting the Westy to be more civilized as anything with an aggressive pattern on the Syncro negates the effort, esp with the howling beast in the back.

Quick Question - when ripping apart a more modern car there was a lot of polystyrene foam cut into the doors - would this act as damping without the moisture retention drawback of foam?


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T3 Westy, T3 Syncro (the ScoobyVelle), New Beetle Cab, 2 x Polos - I have too many projects


Posted By: jason k
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 13:28
i found that putting my porsche rims with load rated car tyres on reduced the road noise as the commercial spec tyres the stock vans run generate far more noise

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Bcs shallowest surf award winner 2006
camperjam 2011 chug and tug team member
aberdare. south wales
newest member of karmann korner
no longer the only moderator to manage to ban himself





Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 13:36
Jason k - me too. I'm using Toyo's on my Caravelle and find them much quieter than van tyres. The down-side is they're more expensive and aren't load-rated up to a fully-loaded camper. But I'm not driving one of those 

Rogerthecat. If the foam in question is closed-cell foam (eg expanding foam from a squirty-tube) then it would have minimal effect on moisture retention. BUT I still wouldn't use it. I can't help thinking that anything which bonds to the surface of the metal could retain water underneath. Closed cell foam is fully sealed, so any moisture trapped underneath will stay there and rot like a goodun.

In my opinion, you could safely attach foam to the back of the door-card, but make sure that you can attach the door card back onto the door

Final point though, bear in mind that most of the work you do on the doors is about improving speaker response. Yes, you have a small effect on the amount of noise coming and going, but since the majority of the external noise is from the wheels and then from where the wind hits the van (ie the front) the noise "produced" by the doors is minimal. Sure, pay a bit of attention to the doors, but you'll get better results in ambient sound reduction elsewhere

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: rogerthecat
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 13:39
Currently running 16" Merc Alloys on the Westy with Continental 225/50 ZR 16 tyres - which are not bad, but MG has suggested a slightly taller profile might help too.

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T3 Westy, T3 Syncro (the ScoobyVelle), New Beetle Cab, 2 x Polos - I have too many projects


Posted By: mr bricolage
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 14:43
OK chaps as this is turning into a highly useful thread. Here are some links to important info which gives reasons why you should not use bitumen based products in your car /van

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140472 - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140472

and a very interesting thread with some scientific measurements as whether it is all worth it

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=254839 - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=254839


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Euramobil Terestra


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 17:02

Wow!  Just read the TheSamba threads and watched/listened to the video clips.  Are these guys thorough or what?

I'm taking what's been said here and on TheSamba into account, but I feel like I'm losing the plot a bit!  The original plan was to get a stereo, sounding half-decent, into the van some time soon.  Starting with speakers in the front, and then a second set above the R'n'R bed for 'filling up the sound' on the move and listening to when I'm parked up.

So... The plan as at now is... get some 5 x 7 or 6 x 9 Blaupunkt's for over the bed, and replace the 5.25's in the front doors with the next model up that have seperate tweeters (which I should have bought in the first place!).  Think about a sub after that (innit!)

Then, (well straight away actually) stuff out the cavities under the front seats with pillows or whatever.  See how it goes from there.

I'm still a little concerned about moisture hold-up in the Dynamat that's in the doors, so I think I'll monitor that.  Likewise the Rockwool in the tailgate, slider and rear quarter behind the slider.  The latter has been in there for 1 year now, time for an inspection perhaps?  I think the difference between cab doors - in this respect - and the Rockwool-ed places is that water routinely gets into the cab doors through the wind-down window 'seals', but the other places have fixed windows which do not leak to my knowledge (so only condensation is an issue there I guess)

Globbits/Richard and Mr. Bric - any more thoughts in addition to what's been said?  You clearly know this subject well.

Until tomorrow...

PaulG



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: mr bricolage
Date Posted: 12 Feb 08 at 20:45
At the end of the day you could spend thousands. Personally I reckon if you spend your money in the right places, you'll get really good results.
Sound proof in the right places. Get some decent speakers with good frequency response curves, put them in the right place. Don't use string for speaker cables and try to keep your cable runs as short as possible.
Finally make sure you have a decent head unit and you'll have something way out does most factory installs.


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Euramobil Terestra


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 13 Feb 08 at 08:46

Mr. Bric - I think that sums it up about right!  BTW my speaker cable is 2.5mm oxygen free nonsense from Bluespot, so miles better than the 'string' they give you in the speaker kits.  It's a pig to solder though!  Especially when the outside temperature including windchill is -7°C!

PaulG



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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: BUBBLE MEISTER
Date Posted: 09 Sep 08 at 01:40

A spot on topic.

We have just had our van done up and am about to fit the door cards to the cab doors.
Before I do that I would like to reduce the road noise. Does the flashband go on the inside of the outer skin panel - or do I lay it across the inner panel instead of the plastic sheeting that is cut out for the speakers and inner door handle?
 
If i goes on the door outerskin, I assume I still put the plastic sheet on the inner skin panel. Will the flash band not trap moisture against the outer skin panel?
 
Very confused - looking for clarity (as ever)
 
BM


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I have BUBBLE the '85B 1.9DF (currently a DG!) WBX Camper. 29 Yrs Young. Tis Tracie's V Bubble U.


Posted By: johnb
Date Posted: 09 Sep 08 at 08:28
The flash band (or whatever) is inert and does not hold water - I sprayed waxoil over the entire door interior after I had applied the sound deadening material just to make sure, then a plastic membrane to cover the door card. 

-------------
My van is better known in these parts than I am


Posted By: BUBBLE MEISTER
Date Posted: 09 Sep 08 at 11:34
Cheers JohnB
 Flashband on the inside of the outer skin, followed by plastic on the inner skin.
Thanks for the that
BM


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I have BUBBLE the '85B 1.9DF (currently a DG!) WBX Camper. 29 Yrs Young. Tis Tracie's V Bubble U.


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 10 Oct 08 at 18:29
 just done the rear doors areas in my crew cab and the area behind the back seat and back of rear seat box area. used screwfix flashing tape. difference is noticable already and have not even done the front doors yet.
   Will eventually take the dash off and do all the back of front panel.
Is it worth putting two layers on or just overkill?


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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: monsho
Date Posted: 10 Oct 08 at 18:53
damping that front panel makes a huge difference to the overall noise levels in the van, might well be worth putting a couple of layers over the whole lot.  I would be can't be arsed taking the dash out!


Posted By: rogerthecat
Date Posted: 10 Oct 08 at 19:15
Good shout. Got some flash banding left from curing leaks in the summerhouse - will apply it to the ScoobyVelle when get if back.Thumbs%20Up

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T3 Westy, T3 Syncro (the ScoobyVelle), New Beetle Cab, 2 x Polos - I have too many projects


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 13 Oct 08 at 09:17
This post lives still on then!
 
I think that if the dash etc. ever has to be stripped out of mine, I will flashband the inside of the front panel with a couple of layers.  That panel really is a 'drum-skin'!  You only have to hear rain hitting it as you drive along to tell how resonant it is!
 
Audio gear wise, I think the next step for me will have to be an amp.  I have to have the head unit at nearly full volume to hear it on the motorway, especially if it is anything like windy!
 
PaulG


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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 13 Oct 08 at 10:28
Sorry guys - I haven't forgotten about this thread. Just had a string of bad luck with engines so Myrtle's been off the road for a few months now Cry She should be back and running shortly, so will get some pictures then. But, my findings so far are:
  • Flashing tape over the engine bay is nigh-on pointless. It makes things smoother and easier to keep clean, but makes almost no difference to the interior noise
    NOTE - This is based on a standard WBX engine with a single Pierburg carb and air intake. If you use twin carbs, particularly with metal air-cleaners, then you will be experiencing engine noise due to the more direct path from the cylinder heads to the engine lid. If this is the case, consider putting a mattress over your engine lid Wink
  • Flashing tape in front of the engine bay (on the diagonal behind the seat) does make a difference, but only if you haven't got anything in front of that panel. It vibrates like a wotsit from the engine vibrations, but if you have a rock 'n roll bed with boards below it, then you won't get any significant benefit from reducing the vibrations in that panel
  • Carpet/something padded on the floor between the back seats and the front seats makes a fair difference to road noise levels. If you just have the metal floor at the moment, seriously consider doing something about it
  • Deadening underneath the front seats makes a huge difference! The horizontal surfaces that make up the "roof" of the wheel arch are flat sheet and ring like a bell! Anything you can do to stop them resonating the road noise through will significantly affect the volume in the bus
    I started off putting pillows in there, which make a big difference. I've now taken them out and covered them in a layer of Second skin Spectrum (liquid form of Dynamat). That improved things a little, but not much. I then cut MDF board to the size and shape of the tub, covered it in car-audio carpet (more for presentation than anything else) and bolted it to the panel (on the inside of the bus, obviously Wink). This has made an incredible difference - the panel doesn't ring at all and I can reduce the volume on the stereo by 9dB (equivalent to 1/8th the previous volume)
  • Deadening the doors makes a difference to where you can hear wind-rush at speed, but not overall volumes. It does, however, improve the sound of your stereo no-end! Wink
    Again, I used Second skin Spectrum for this, because you can just paint it on so it's much easier to get into all the crooks and nannies. Oh, and my doors now go "clunk" when you shut them, instead of "ting".
  • The front panel is next on my list. As Monsho says, the wind-rush and rain noise against it is phenomenal, so I see no reason why a layer or two of flashing or Spectrum won't make a massive difference to the noise
As soon as I get Myrtle back, I'll take some photos of what's been done, but to summarise:
Wheel arches are the enemy - concentrate on them!!!!!!

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 21 Oct 08 at 21:45
finished doors now . done all 4 doors of crewie with double thickness of screwfix finest flashing tape. doors are SOLID now .(and as above - stereo sounds so much niecerer!)
   gonna do front panel this week when i take dash off (hell - might even do dash as well seeing as its metal)
   also gonna do under seats with double thickness/carpet n stuff as above!


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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 21 Oct 08 at 22:15
Looking forward to hearing how you get on Elvis - I'm planning on attacking Myrtle's front panel when she comes back from Elite. So please let us know!

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 21 Oct 08 at 22:19
no worries chap! hoping it makes a big difference - whole front panel is being hit/buffeted head on continuously (sorry to state the obvious). will let you know thursday night.

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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: poshbuggers
Date Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 07:18
So, with regard to positioning.

Cab doors we reckon a 6.5" component setup with the larger speaker in the 'hole' and a tweeter higher up.

If you have a crewcab is there any point in rear door speakers and what sort (same as the front?) should they be?

I've had a temporary setup in mine for a year now. I Dynamatted the doors and waxoyled through. Put a layer on the under seat panels while I was at it also.

The info on Blaupunkt stereos was very welcome. I'm tired of kinked heater cables and trapped wires because the head units don't fit the designated space and a simple black Blaupunkt will suit the truck better than a flashy silver item.

I fancy making some sealed boxes in the doors to get the most from the speakers, most manufacturers now put at the very least a plastic cone behind the speaker to keep the volume correct and in a T3 door thats a lot of air for a little speaker to fuddle with. Making it smaller and sealed should offer a cleaner, punchier sound surely?

Good thread, keep up the pearls of knowledge guys.

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'82 LHD Westy 1.6d, '87 4dr RHD Syncro Doka barsteward


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 11:19
As a car audio nut, I'm a big fan of the premise "One speaker for one job". So my car-stereo setups are always:
  • A pair of midrange speakers in the front doors
  • A pair of tweeters on the dash or horns under it
  • One or two subs in the boot
Any more speakers in the mix and you just muddy the sound (in my opinion, of course)

This in mind, I wouldn't advocate the use of rear speakers at all, let alone in the rear doors. Putting them there puts them close to your (the driver) head, so definitely confusing where the sound is coming from. The more social among you may argue that your rear passengers may get a bass-heavy sound, but they're passengers - sod 'em LOL

On the topic of sealed boxes though, you'd be surprised what a midrange driver works with. Apparently, the ideal sealed "box" size for a midrange driver is anything from 2-4 cubit feet. So a well-sealed door is a good size for them. I have previously made a sealed box for midrange drivers by replacing the door pocket with an MDF "build". This made for a capacity of something like 0.5cu ft and, sure, the sound was very punchy. BUT there was very little bass-response, as the resonant frequency was far too high.

That said, I'm planning on making sealed boxes for Myrtle by making a fibreglass "tub" that drops down below the lowest hole in the door, then having the speaker mounted on an angle on a baffle bolted to the front. This will serve a number of purposes:
  • A more solid mounting for the speaker, giving better bass-response (or rather, losing less through shaking the door)
  • Less requirement for Dynamat/sound deadening, as the door itself won't be forced to "contain" the bass notes
  • Better aiming for the midrange, giving a better soundstage (I hope)
  • I shouldn't have to worry about the speaker getting wet/rusty Clap
But bear in mind I'm going over the top on stereo setup because I'm silly. The "tubs" that I plan on making will be in excess of 1cu ft and will be chuffing solid. Whatever you choose to seal your speakers with, bear in mind that the capacity of the door is actually working in your favour. Unless you replace that space with another of similar size, you'll probably be disappointed

Final comment about bass response and what you think you're hearing. The standard T3 doors have lots of BIG holes in, covered with some very thin and weedy hardboard. If you put a speaker of reasonable strength into the door cavity, you will hear bass through the speaker and, to a lesser extent, the areas of the door card where there are holes behind. This in itself is muddling what sound you hear and bass the most, because it's the highest-energy signal. If you strengthen the door card, or "block off" the holes using Dynamat/etc, then you'll only hear the sound from the speaker itself, significantly increasing the clarity of the sound

Hope I haven't bored you to sleep! Wink

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: shapey
Date Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 10:24

what about the air holes in the front edge and the vent at the base of the doors? fill them up? do the vents actually serve any real purpose anyway?

i've mounted front speakers the way that poshbuggers has described - a midrange in the big hole towards the base of the door and a tweeter just in front of the winder. i've then got a moisture barrier behind the speakers to stop them getting wet/rusty and i've stuck a load of sound deadening panels to the inside of the outer door skins.


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 12:55
The vents at the base of the doors shouldn't be a problem as they're fed from the fan at the front of the bus (sometimes!)

As for the air holes in the front, no - that won't help significantly. Your aim is to block off the holes facing you (or simply strengthen the door card in those places, which is the cheaper and simpler option), which gives two benefits:
  1. reducing the places that the speaker sound can get out from, which means you get more sound from the speaker itself (yay, woo, louder music! Clap)
  2. more importantly, you are reducing the places your ear hears sound from, which increases the sound clarity
Bass frequencies are affected most by multiple sound locations (as their wavelength is the longest) and will suffer cancellation (flat spots) or resonance (booming). So by reducing the effect of the other, unwanted sound locations, you improve the sound quality and, by happy accident, quantity

Hope that clears things up?

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 21:11
 Took out dashboard today and realised how little of the front panel you can reach ,bugger.
    Anyway , craked on and did anything/everything i could reach. In a moment of inspired genius i did as much of the underside of the dash as i could.
 
   Deffo a noticable improvement and worth the hassle IMHO ( or even wait until doing heater etc)
 
 Also replaced the washer jets with a set of twin jets (two jets/nozzles in each  unit so 4 jets in total)  deffo big thumbs up for them.
 
  feckin rained all day though!


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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 24 Oct 08 at 09:35
I did wonder about how much of the front panel you can get to. Maybe an option would be to go in from behind the radiator and cover the front with Waxoyl instead/as well? Just a thought, the liquid-based sound-deadening materials are pretty good (I'm chuffed to bits with Second Skin Spectrum). Could you "pour" the deadening into areas you couldn't get the flashing tape?

Where did you get the twin-jets from? Sounds like a good investment!



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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 24 Oct 08 at 15:20
 If you were ever replacing fan and had the heater box out you could get to it all.
    Doubt you could get liquid stuff in without making a real mess , pipes/hoses/wires/trim everywhere - was a 'kin nightmare!!!
   jets were from Mike at http://www.busman.be - www.busman.be . cant remember how much i paid , but wasnt a huge amount. deffo a thumbs up upgrade.


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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: ali t
Date Posted: 29 Oct 08 at 08:26
hey guys
aiming a little point to all involved in this thread and who like the whole car audio thing have you noticed that there has been less focus in the past few years on car audio installations/builds/demo vehicles etc...i used to love that 'car stereo and security' mag that used to be available on the newsagents shelves but now thats faded away, it only seems to be the few keen folk that still spend time(and money) on a decent system and you can't broadcast it too much anyways cos of the scabby pikeys that might target your pride and joy for the contents of it...ah well rant over
nice thread hope someone here keeps car audio alive, vans always made great spl machines...


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 09:57
Woo!!!! Got Myrtle back from Elite VW last night! Approve
Phase 2 of sound-control and stereo equipment should start in the next week or so. Plans include:
  • Localising and reducing engine noise
  • Minimising wind-noise from the front panel (bought some large sheets of closed-cell foam at Vanfest that might be the answer)
  • Reducing road noise from the floor area
  • Building fibreglass sub-boxes underneath the rear seat
  • Replacement front door cards with fibreglass speaker pods
  • A-pillar tweeter "builds" (also known as stealth sound-deadening Big%20smile)
As you can imagine, this is going to take a while, but I'll post progress reports with pictures as I can

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 10:40
Go for it Richard!  I never imagined this thread would turn into such a long-lived and interesting one!
 
My next step is to get my front seats out, re-arrange some of the campervan electric bits that live under there, and then make some sound-deadening panels to go into those under-seat spaces.  If possible I want to mount an amp under there then, which will hopefully power the speakers I have better without having to use the head-unit at almost full volume.  Then, if possible, deaden the front panel with the minimum of dismantling of the dash.  As Elvis says, if you ever have to get it out entirely then that's the time to do it more thoroughly.
 
I hope I meet up with you and Myrtle somewhere next season, and compare notes!
 
Best wishes,
 
Paul.


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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 12:25
Can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to spending time working on the bus again - she's been off the road for two months waiting for the engine to be sorted, so I'm champing at the bit, as 'twere!

If you're ever down South Paul, I'm near Portsmouth and am happy to meet up and discuss/demonstrate. As for shows, we should be at Bus Types and Vanfest next year. Not sure what others we'll make it to as we're looking to move to Devon. But will give many progress reports in here anyway Wink

Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: shapey
Date Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 13:16
i was just looking at patrick's air ride tristar bbuild thread on vw vortex.
there are some great pictures of his sound deadening install around the cab / dash area with the dash and pedals out...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3130296&page=1 - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3130296&page=1


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 05 Nov 08 at 16:26
Hi guys,
 
Richard, we normally have a Brick-Yard camp set up at Bus Types, look out for the thread nearer the time and join in if you would like to.  We are (mostly) harmless!  Myrtle looks good with her big bumpers (ooerr missus!)


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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: ibiza1999
Date Posted: 06 Nov 08 at 21:17
Fascinating to read all the threads on this subject as i am also in midst of an upgrade in the i.c.e. department! Currently got diamond audio 61/2 inch mids in doors (with strengthened/baffled door cards) tweeters on dash. Some rear fill ( debateable point i know!) with 51/4 mids in overhead rear locker. (got speakers from autosounds4less in usa - when exchange was better!) 
All amped up (genesis 4 channel) with cd head unit and ipod connector. Just managed to source a jl audio sub 12" and a jl audio amp (ebay) to fire it up which i plan to put in the rear seat base.
I have put fatmat - (dynamat equivalent) in doors and next weekend plan to do all the front foot well and rear floor. Also bought some housing insulation (thin stuff) to spray glue down to help insulate for keeping warmer on chillier nights!Big%20smile 
 


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Redstar and south African import.                 One life! Live it!


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 06 Nov 08 at 21:26
Globbits/other clever audio chaps - got a a crewie and just installed new door cards front and rear.Dont really want to cut rear door cards as there is no-where to run the cables easily into the rear door(not drilled in side of door for cables and cant run them inside B pillars either).
  Would it be ok to install speakers in the 'box' that the rear seat sits on ? Its the metal type. If so what would be best ? I dont want 6 x 9s , just plain 15cm round uns.
 Any ideas ?
 
 
 now that i have near finished , here is what i have done so far
 
   2 layers of screwfix flashbanding http://www.screwfix.com/prods/25426/Sealants-Adhesives/Tapes/Insulating-Sealing-Tape/Flashing-Tape-150mm-x-10m - http://www.screwfix.com/prods/25426/Sealants-Adhesives/Tapes/Insulating-Sealing-Tape/Flashing-Tape-150mm-x-10m
   150mm was best - wide enough that you wernt cutting loads but skinny enough not to have to mess about getting it in the front doors without folding it 50 times!
 
  On the crewie i did rear door , rear non-door side , front doors (outer skin AND inner metal skin that speakers go thr), behind rear seat backrest, bulkhead under/behind rear seat , as much as poss of front panel/bulkhead and also underside of dash.
 
 Made a huge difference. Going to do under front seats tomorrow with 3 layers also plan to do around rear window and then cover in accoustic cloth/lining carpet..
 
With reference to mounting front speakers more solidly. On ebay you can get MDF rings like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-of-MDF-Speaker-Spacer-Rings-to-Suit-6-5in-Speakers_W0QQitemZ180304060731QQihZ008QQcategoryZ18799QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-of-MDF-Speaker-Spacer-Rings-to-Suit-6-5in-Speakers_W0QQitemZ180304060731QQihZ008QQcategoryZ18799QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem . I screwed these onto the door cards from behind - about 8 10mm screws after spraying them satin black and these have made a massive difference.More soldily mounted and door cards dont end up all tatttered from having speakers mounted directly with those wankey metal clips.
 
 


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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 07 Nov 08 at 00:22
Elvis, looks like you've been busy! Nice work! (Will comment on what you've done in a mo' Wink)

I have to admit I'm changing my focus away from flashband/dynamat/spectrum and moving towards foam. Don't get me wrong, the difference in the sound of shutting the doors, now I've got a layer of material on the outer skins, is a huge improvement. But on the basis Myrtle isn't ever going to be in a car-audio competition and isn't going to run such a massive system that I have to worry about sound volumes shaking panels, I figure that deadening doors and the like isn't for me.

Keep in mind that dynamat-type materials are designed to reduce the resonance of a panel. Ambient sound reduction is a happy by-product, but that means that there are more efficient ways of reducing ambient noise - foam being a good example. My feeling is that the biggest achievements can be made by reducing engine, wind and road noise - in that order of priority. So, my prime targets are going to be:

Engine noise
Foam sheeting in the tailgate, on the slope in front of the engine, then surface above the engine
Wind noise
Foam sheeting bonded to the front panel below the dash, behind the dash and inside the front doors and sliding doors (Myrtle's a twin-slider). Not to the outer skins, but as close to the door card as I can get, behind the inner skin

Road noise
Flashband on the rear floor area and cab floor area (I've already done my wheel arches, otherwise they'd be first LOL) I might play with putting a layer of foam on top here, under the carpet, but that might be overkill

I reckon I can at least quarter the ambient noise by doing that lot and it's probably only a solid weekend's work

Once that's done, I shall be making new front door cards out of 6mm ply, bracing them around the speaker mountings, then making pods for the actual speakers

So that's me - guess I'd best comment on your questions Elvis Wink

As I've said before, don't bother with rear speakers. Really. Really really. You won't notice a benefit, as all you'll hear from them is midrange, which will confuse your ears. Really really really. This also goes for speakers in the box below the rear seats - it may improve the sound when you're parked up at a campsite and sat in the back just chilling, but the rest of the time it'll sound worse - promise. Just put a pair of good strong speakers (or ideally 2-way components) up front and you'll be happy as Larry. If you like bass, put a sub in the back. Do not put rear speakers in!

Incidentally Myrtle currently has a pair of 6*9's mounted in the bottom of the front doors and, much as it pains me to say it, the sound's really not bad from them. I'm really not a fan of 6*9's as they're a compromise speaker, but in the front of a T3, they give a damned good sound. If you haven't bought your front speakers yet, get a pair of 6*9's and you won't go far wrong.

As for more-solidly mounting speakers, damned right - MDF baffles are your friend. If you're handy with a jigsaw (or a router) you can easily make the baffles yourself, but if not the ebay ones are fine. Essentially all you're doing is increasing the stiffness of the door card at the point the speaker's fitted, forcing the speaker to move the cone more and itself less, making it more efficient. The bigger (wider) you can make the baffle, the stronger the bracing and the better the effect.


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: PaulG
Date Posted: 10 Nov 08 at 14:02
Hi Guys,
 
Globbits - I'm loving reading your contributions to this thread, and it is largely down to you that it has lived so long, so I'm sorry but I can't agree with your advice not to fit rear speakers.  The addition of speakers above the rear locker in my T3 camper, in addition to the ones in the front doors, made a huge difference.  They fill in the sound when you are driving along, and they are great for music listening and the audio from DVD's while relaxing on the rear seat/bed (which is also part of why you fit a stereo, especially in a campervan IMHO).  There is no way I would go back to how it was without them!
 
Also, in my case, the whole project/install is an experimental exercise.  It's interesting and it's fun to try things out and find out what difference they make.  More sound deadening etc. next for me as I have said above.
 
Paul.
 
 
 
 


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Brick-Yard. Not a club, more a way of doing things. (Robert Fripp - kind of...)


Posted By: irishkeet
Date Posted: 25 Feb 09 at 08:24
I have also done my westy and added thermawrap insulation at the same time
photos at the link below under sound 7 insulation
http://albums.phanfare.com/2193687/3365536 - http://albums.phanfare.com/2193687/3365536

irishkeet







Posted By: dude
Date Posted: 13 Aug 09 at 01:28
I don't get it that Dynamat will be moisture problem.
I fitted it my last van (not vw), due to the cost of Dynamat, I did the cab in Dynamat and the rest in flashing and car felt, and mdf panels, I fitted 4x15's in it so I felt it was justified, made a massive difference. Anyway a seal in the fibreglass roof failed and it rained heavily while I was away, when I got back there was puddles in the van, 2 inches deep in some places. I despaired. I tell this anecdote because after sorting all the mess out, it was only the panels that had dynamat that weren't affected by the water, a lot of the panels were still factory paint and survived unscathed but others that weren't covered needed attention.
The adhesive on the back of Dynamat is thick and waterproof if you put it on properly it will be like  a layer of waterproof membrane, in my mind anyway, and in the unplanned experiment above it didn't contradict this thinking for me. The foam itself doesn't retain water either, so I don't quite see it myself.
I aint no authority on the matter by any stretch of the imagination though heh, just my 2p really

I do heartily agree that Dynamat is for the most part "the emperor's clothes" , most people don't need/use it well, same results can be achieved with other methods, and I think there are better products around in competition with Dynamat, just don't see them in the uk much, mostly in the US.

so with that said, I am doing my van (california) in Dynamat at the mo, hehe
I am putting it in because I am familiar with it and know what I can realistically achieve with it, and lazyness :) but more importantly I am putting it in to quiet the van ride, these are noisy beasts on the road I find. I am also putting it in because I am fitting 6x9s in the doors and they are nice ones (Morel), so would like to hear at least some of the speaker that I buying.

I am fitting it to :
All doors, footwells, arches, under chair boxes, rear air intakes, engine lid, side panels on non westy side of van (not doing behind the westy units)
that is 250 quids worth of Dynamat.

I have been tapping knocking and listening to the panels and find some sound very resonant and others don't, the ones that are resonant are the ones I felt I needed to get at.
I will tackle the nose on another occasion, 2 sheets should do it I think, lot of work to get those two sheets in.

that's probably a boring long and opinionated post, so here's a couple of pictures of my 6x9 builds pre-resin as they are right now to make up for it, I hope


http://img299.imageshack.us/i/p1010005f.jpg/

http://img81.imageshack.us/i/p1010004uxh.jpg/


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Anyone who says he can see through women is missing a lot. - Groucho Marx


Posted By: raynemohrman
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 11:05
Hi, i read the message this very use full information.  i have used stuff Monsho has mentioned in several past cars and about to fit it in the bus too. Works a treat! thank you.SleepySleepySleepy


Posted By: Globbits
Date Posted: 29 Mar 10 at 11:26
Wow - thread from the dead! Big smile
 
Sorry for having disappeared from this post for so long. I haven't forgotten about it, but have had two engine conversions and a transmission swap to do in the meantime. All good though - I'm now rockin' with an AAZ engine and 5speed manual trans. But the engine noise is even worse now!  Cry
 
In the end, I spoke with the guys at CarAudioDirect about how to deal with the van noise and have decided to go mad - in for a penny, in for a pound and all that. So I have a wadge of stuff on order with them at the moment. It's due in a week or so. So, when that arrives there will be lots of posts on here about the install. I'll also try and get some volume level tests done, just to be able to measure the improvement empirically
 
Give me a couple of weeks and I'll give you an update Wink
 
Richard


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Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!


Posted By: RODEO
Date Posted: 02 May 10 at 12:04
Lots of good info in this thread. Have used the flash band in other front engined vans over the years,then just panelled them out. Im doing my first vw now,and wondering apart from the flashband on inside of the panels ,what is the silver tape  over the panel holes I see in some interior build threads,and is there anything else used in the voids behind this? Whats the best insulation for the floor in the rear?  
        Thanks.........


Posted By: strangely brown
Date Posted: 08 May 10 at 19:54
Just finished flash banding mine curteousy of B&Q, when i shut them now "they sound just like a Golf".
 
                                                       Mr. Brown


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strangely brown (colonial cousin)


Posted By: murdoch
Date Posted: 31 May 10 at 08:17
me too Big smile, did the wheel tubs aswell and recarpeted over the top, been off recovering from knee ops, so i've been trying to  find things to do standing up. hopefully get the all clear to drive from the doc tomorrow, then i can find out if it makes a difference

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murdoch


Posted By: 86ClubJoker
Date Posted: 14 Jun 10 at 22:24
So Richard, Globbits, what's the news?

What did you order?


Posted By: Nev
Date Posted: 14 Jun 10 at 23:54
I started to sound deaden me wagon today, I used Edead, looks pretty much the same as screw fix's flashing roll stuff Elvis used. I've insulated the van with 25mm celotex I have left a gap between the celotex and the panels for air to pass, I have use some posh silver type bubble wrap looking stuff to insulate the main floor area. I plan to use 4mm ply for my door cards lined in 2mm foam which I'm going to cover with my 'at no cost' crushed leather £300 a hide (ask no questions!!)
I'm thinking about doing something with walnut to create some speaker pods like the ones in Peet's thread. Not too sure yet but I'm still into 1st fix phase of the van so I'll let ya know.
 
I aint got the money for a full on stereo system at the min but planning on having one, so I'm going to run all the appropriate cables, I was wondering if someone could help me figure out a good speaker set up, as I know shit about what will sound good in a T3. Wanted a component system rather than 6x9's, a small sub and amp or amps to suit. I was curious to know if I needed some kind of trunking to get speaker cable in my doors, as its an early panel van there isn't anything there at the min.
 


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A fool and his money are easily parted! Especially when the fool owns a T3


Posted By: Mike_
Date Posted: 15 Jun 10 at 12:18
Have a chat and listen to mine when you pick up the cable - it's only half finished but sounds pretty decent, got some back of a fag packet sketches for some nice speaker pods with built in door bins as well, should be pretty easy to make from some 6,9 and 18mm mdf.


Posted By: Nev
Date Posted: 14 Jul 10 at 08:00
Just to add to this, I recently used Siaklfex or similar product, to stick batterns to the ceiling of the van, I couldn't believe the sound deadening qualities of the stuff used with wood. I want to.try 3mm mdf strips siaklfxed to my front doors. It's far better than any e dead or flashing tape.

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A fool and his money are easily parted! Especially when the fool owns a T3


Posted By: HarryMann
Date Posted: 08 Apr 11 at 20:16
Just for anyone reading this thread today (2011 onwards)...

This page 1 statement:

Quote What Dynamat et al does NOT do is reduce the amount of noise being passed to the outside world

If you want to do that, you need to increase the sound-absorption of each panel - which generally means either sticking egg-trays over the inside of every panel or covering all Dynamatted areas in self-adhesive foam. NOT advisable, as this will increase the moisture retention in our precious busses.


is not strictly true.


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 08 Apr 11 at 22:07
why not?

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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: HarryMann
Date Posted: 08 Apr 11 at 22:41
It'd be the other way a round... if at all.

Mass and stiffness that'd stop noise travelling through and outside, not the anechoic effect of some pimply egg boxes or soft foam. That'd help stop it reflecting 'inside' the door well.

It might also damp some of the mid & esp. higher frequency stuff from going through, if done really well, but as well all know, what matters (and gets outside to annoy the fcuk out of peeps of my vintage) is the high energy stuff, and the lower the frequency, the more the energy, on a logarithmic scale. Only mass and stiffness stops that...

NB. There are a few generalisations and possibly some black & white statements that should be slightly grey even in that, but fundamentally I'd defend that viewpoint


Posted By: booted
Date Posted: 12 May 11 at 13:35
its in english but not as i know it Confused


Posted By: skysurfin09
Date Posted: 22 May 11 at 12:41
  What a really informative thread this is. I'm at the stage now where I'm looking to install sound deadening material and having looked at what was on offer and the price of [Dynomat] I was hoping for some tried and tested alternatives and methods. Many thanks, my 2.1'G' Microbus has been stripped internally and had new rear arches etal fitted. I've an Alpine head unit which handles both CD's, cassettes and my iPod. The speakers are 2x 6x9s Infinitys [Front] and 2x 6x9s Alpines at the sides [middle]. Based on this thread I intend to fit a sub under rear seating.  Thanks again RobSmile



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