Print Page | Close Window

1.9 tdi pump ?

Printed From: The Brick-yard
Category: T3 Section
Forum Name: T3 Engine Upgrades
Forum Description: Forum for tuned or alternative engines.
URL: http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45491
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 17:24
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 1.9 tdi pump ?
Posted By: 1982bus
Subject: 1.9 tdi pump ?
Date Posted: 24 Oct 09 at 09:00
hello all i have fitted 1.9tdi (1z) enging in my T3 but i am running a aaz fuel pump where i did not have the pump or ecu for the tdi.it does not to seam to have the power of my old aaz engine is there.is this pump ok on this engine or should i get a diffent pump for it



Replies:
Posted By: UAP1
Date Posted: 24 Oct 09 at 10:51
You need a hybrid pump mate have a word with Baxter but they aint cheap
The shaft on the TDI pump is a lot thicker so can pump higher pressure than the AAZ one it will run but be as flat as a witches tit
Better sticking the Fly by wire pump back on it and see if you can by pass the anti theft shut down device linked with it there is a post on here somewhere to show you how it can be done if you search for it.
Stu


Posted By: 1982bus
Date Posted: 24 Oct 09 at 11:03

do you know if you can fit a different tdi pump on it off of something else



Posted By: UAP1
Date Posted: 24 Oct 09 at 11:35
Originally posted by 1982bus 1982bus wrote:

do you know if you can fit a different tdi pump on it off of something else

Somebody reckons you can fit one off a Landrover but I aint seen it or for that matter how it performs, but others on here might advise.


Posted By: shrek
Date Posted: 24 Oct 09 at 19:31

does any one know about fitting landrover pumps on the 1z enging



Posted By: Full Throttle
Date Posted: 24 Oct 09 at 23:52
Speak / search for Hot1200, think he had a 1z with a aaz pump and said it went well if you tweeked the pump. Most peeps dont recommend an AAZ pump on a 1z though.


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 26 Oct 09 at 13:15
I run a landy 200tdi pump,

swap the vw pulley over, set timing as per landy spec, machine out the hole in the mounting bracket. Custom brace bracket (very simple) on the back of the pump, and custom connection to accelerator cable (also dead simple). All injector lines etc line up, about as bolt on as you can get as  far as mods like this go.

Mine runs ok, starts on the button and ticks over nicely, no smoke, but is down on power compared to standard. Plenty of tricks available to sort this. (LDA and governer mod) I am just waiting to send mine over to giles in canada (PDI)

re the aaz pump, it doesnt make the required peak pressure for tdi injectors, so the pump needs to be advanced to correct the timing. Though it can be made to work (al hot1200) by tweaking the LDA etc, it will never be proper...


-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: monsho
Date Posted: 26 Oct 09 at 15:07
Yeah the Giles Super Pumps are supposed to be ace...

Tdi needs an awful lot more pressure than td, but there are few mechanical Tdi pumps (ie non electrical) that will fit on, and all need modification.  I have got one that fits an LT van, but it still needs a fair bit of tweaking / modifying to get it running right...


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 26 Oct 09 at 18:49
Yeah, looking forward to having a Giles pump built. Theres loads of info about on tweaking these units, but without a proper test bench and the skills that goes with it, home made jobs will only ever achieve so much.

Trouble is decent diesel techs aren't keen on non standard things like this, because if they work less than perfect, it can help knacker their reputation. I know a spot on diesel engineer, genius of a bloke, and I'm sure he could achieve a lot in 'modding' a landy pump for a dub tdi, but when I had my landy pump serviced, I had to pretend it was for a landy or he would have walked away!

All depends on what you really want from your engine at the end of the day. Hot 1200 was well happy with his on an AAZ unit.. On paper its wrong, but if it works well enough, it works well enough... Looking for a fair dose of power myself tho Tongue


-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: avdem
Date Posted: 26 Oct 09 at 19:24
I`m running my 1z with a non modified Jx pump and although it runs ok i can`t seem to get the same power as im my old syncro with an AAZ and jx pump. Always thought it was a matter of adjustments but reading this i understand it will ever run as well as it should.....
 
So what are my options?
 
Still got the original 1Z pump somewhere so going fly by wire could be an option. Problem is i`m a NOOB on electrics. Would also have to get a complete harness of a donor car. Would anyway be the cheapest option.
 
If keeping it mechanical i`ve broken it down to these options:
 
LR pump, requires tweaking
 
LT pump, same as above, but might fit straight on? What year should i be looking for?
 
Busschmiede sells a mTDI pump that probably is bolt on but not much info on it.... Expensive.
%3cA%20href= - http://www.busschmiede.de/shop/T3-Einspritzpumpe-mechanisch-19-TDI-im-Tausch "> http://www.busschmiede.de/shop/T3-Einspritzpumpe-mechanisch-19-TDI-im-Tausch - http://www.busschmiede.de/shop/T3-Einspritzpumpe-mechanisch-19-TDI-im-Tausch
 
This is my daily driver so i need this upgrade to be an easy fix, what would the experts do?
 
 
 
 


-------------
1990 syncro mTDI


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 26 Oct 09 at 19:52
Experts with money? Send  an LT unit to Giles in Canada,

Not sure if the LT pump needs the bracket modding.  Doing anything to a daily driver is tricky though, always going to be a compromise.

Re the buschmeide unit, not sure if its a modded unit or just a standard LT pump. Though the price isnt out of the way for what it is, I would be pissed off paying that amount if it only gave me the same results as my un modified landrover pump...

For the record, my landrover unit drives fine, with zero mods (just the brackets), its just that it could make more power than it does.


-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: avdem
Date Posted: 26 Oct 09 at 20:27

Thanks for the reply, probably have to dig out my german skills and write a mail to busschmiede, need some more info on that one.

JX pump works ok but want more.....


-------------
1990 syncro mTDI


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 26 Oct 09 at 20:34
let us all know what you find out, im sure a lot of people would go mtdi if there was a 100% simple bolt on solution. also, check out vwdiesel.net, lots of excellent info on modding pumps..

I do know baxter has been looking into this, but dont know how sucessful he has been. Monsho, i take it yours is a baxter unit?


-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: gundog
Date Posted: 06 Nov 09 at 23:13
hi, had all the same bother, i can say that the aaz pump can run it but you need to do a bit of messing with it, if you can get  a tdi pump for parts, swap out the cam plate and all the parts after this right up to where the fuel meets the injecter line ( cam plate, springs, rotor shaft, pump head) the aaz pump only has 9mm rotor shaft, tdi,10mm so more fuel straight away.  theres lots of messing you can do but thats the basic thing that needs to be done, lots of folk say that the main shaft is not  up to any more than 10mm pump heads but im running a ford tranit 11mm on the back of mine with bigger injector nozzels and so on. aaz 17mm, tdi 20mm main shafts. not that of a big deal to change, just use a bit of grease to hold things in place when you lower the head back on. Big smile  


Posted By: Baxter
Date Posted: 06 Nov 09 at 23:17
Here We Go Again....


Posted By: UAP1
Date Posted: 07 Nov 09 at 08:13

Its a fecking sight easier installing a AAZ  I can tell you I tried alll that lot give it up in the end and stuck aaz in goes like a train



Posted By: avdem
Date Posted: 07 Nov 09 at 11:05
Gundog: Would it be possible to modify the JX pump in the same way?
Posted a mail to Busschmiede, the mTDI pump they sell is a bolt-on on the AFN and 1Z engines.  Didn`t give me any datas though. He recommends upgrading the turbo as well. The JX turbo won`t be optimal but the original 1Z turbo might do a better job?
 
They sell a full mTDI kit as well: Pump, turbo and nozzels, 1900 euros...............
 
 


-------------
1990 syncro mTDI


Posted By: Full Throttle
Date Posted: 09 Nov 09 at 11:52
It seems strange to me that lots of people want a mech pump when the cost of these pumps is excessive. You also have the problem of costs when it fails. Buying a pre-made cable harness to stay electronic is surely the sensible and cheaper option.
Understand mech pumps for syncro owners as they go wading in water.


Posted By: johnnyblue
Date Posted: 10 Nov 09 at 20:50
i have a 1z engine with an aaz pump fitted to it. that was all i had at the time and it hasnt been too bad on fuel and it did seem to go ok but i had a try of a 1.6td multistar type thingy and it seemed to pull quite a bit better altho mine is a heavyish high top if it makes a difference. im looking to change this set up tho because it smokes quite  a bit and im pretty sure it could be a lot better.


Posted By: Baxter
Date Posted: 10 Nov 09 at 21:10
I'm on the cusp of selling pumps but there are a few catches.
You must jave a boost gauge.
You must have a EGT gauge.
You must have a charge cooler.
I need to instal it as there is a fair amount of buggering about
To get them to work right.
Pump will bolt on.
Pump does require internal messing from the base pump

The test pump on andrews van is far capable of silly power
We've had to knock the power down to keep a check on egt, in a smaller
Car or with water injection they could be amazing.


Posted By: Tee3
Date Posted: 10 Nov 09 at 21:14
I'll second that on Andrews, I went for a ride yesterday in the "tuned down" version and its bloomin quick! I can only imagine what it was like in "balls out smokey monster" mode




-------------

YOU CANT EDUCATE GAMMON

http://www.tee3.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - http://www.tee3.co.uk/


Posted By: Baxter
Date Posted: 10 Nov 09 at 21:34
It was stupid quick! Funny as fuck! But not a recipe for
Longevity! Hence stipulating boost and EGT gauges.


Posted By: Iceworx
Date Posted: 12 Nov 09 at 10:57
Any idea or indication of if the engine lid will need cutting with these pumps on the 1Z , like the AAZ does?
 
 


-------------
T5 130 LWB 2.5 TDi - Becoming a camper
http://www.realgraffix.blogspot.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - T5 Camper Build Blog


Posted By: Baxter
Date Posted: 12 Nov 09 at 12:22
Yes, they do.
Not an issue though, my lid kits make the job nice and tidy, safe and easy to fit


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 13 Nov 09 at 00:35
Originally posted by Full Throttle Full Throttle wrote:

It seems strange to me that lots of people want a mech pump when the cost of these pumps is excessive. You also have the problem of costs when it fails.


surely when an electronic TDI pump fails it costs too?

personally I couldnt go with an electronics set up, i need my van to be reliable Wink



-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: Full Throttle
Date Posted: 13 Nov 09 at 14:02

The pro's and con's of both systems has been argued many times.

If your pump fails which system is more likely to be up and running faster that the other. Wink
No big deal until you are abroad and the worst happens.


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 13 Nov 09 at 21:50
The mtdi will not only be less likely to let you down in the first place, but if it did, mtdi would most likely be faster to get up and running.

The pure mechanical pump set up has less to go wrong. An electronically controlled pump has all the same mechanical components, and therefore has the potential to suffer all the same problems, but with  extra electro-mechanical pieces in the loop, it has so many extra potential show stoppers. Thats before you even factor in the sensors and the ecu itself.

I genuinely, 100% seriously, went the route of an mtdi for reliability, from where im stood its a no brainer.


edit:
Wink


-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: Full Throttle
Date Posted: 14 Nov 09 at 22:32
Both pumps are reliable.
We are talking about when they fail, especially if your abroad.
Electronic pump is standard and a standard job to change.
Mtdi not standard.
 
99% of the time nothing ever happens, but when it does your going to have to explain what has been done to your pump or hope the mechanic understands what he's looking at.
 
How many variants of an mtdi pump are there, which one is in your van. ?
Fine if you built it, but a nightmare if you bought a van with one already in it and you know nothing about pumps like most of us do.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: monsho
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 08:32
All sensible arguments, with mine its a pump off the shelf with a few adjustments made by Mr Baxter which are all recorded down, could fairly easily swap it out...

But in all fairness, its a brand new pump which isn't heavily modified and under strain and will do about 5000 miles a year, I really don't expect it to go wrong (famous last words!).  Same with rest of the setup, its all mainly off the shelf and new.


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 10:51
@ full throttle:

Sorry fella, I disagree with a passion.

How many variants? Good question. Loads is the answer, so when it breaks down, pick one and fit it. I have a landy 200 pump. Nowt stopping me swapping it out for a landy 300, a VW LT one, JX, AAZ, renau!t pumps, p£ugeot pumps, ford pumps. etc etc. All of these will get me back on the road. The key part of mtdi conversions is not getting them running, its getting them running at their best. Think of dozens of different pump options as a 'limp mode', that will get you home.

Full leccy TDI? " no, needs to match the ECU, sorry, got one on the shelf, but its the wrong year and wont work" Need to get you a new one (£1000's) or wait for a second hand one to come up (weeks?).

So I also am talking about when you break down too. As I said in my above post, not only is mtdi far less likely to let you down in the first place, but is far more likely to be up and running quicker and cheaper.

Full leccy tdi  is "standard" you say? The mechanic will be nervous at the fact that you have put a golf engine into a T3 anyway, he doesn't give a 2 shakes of a dogs cock that "its wired up properly mate", in his eyes it doesnt belong in that van.

He would be less freaked out looking at an mtdi pump, as at least he knows where he stands with it. Its a simple mechanical pump, just like the JX pump he thought it had before you gave him the 'good news' about the tdi conversion.

As you said yourself, it is simply a case of needing to explain what has been done. "Its had a landy pump fitted mate". There, I explained it. If you can't discuss your conversion a little with any mechanic that ever has to work on it, then you have no right driving a T3 with a custom engine set up. You have to be, to a point, your own mechanic. If you bought a converted one, you have a duty to yourself to research it, so you DO have the info you need in worst case scenario. This is the same whether tdi OR mtdi. Anybody abroad in this situation with no idea what to tell the garage, is a fool, and as such doesnt need to rely on anything to get himself into trouble, as he will achieve it regardless.

Breakdown abroad with an internal mechanical pump problem, then tdi OR mtdi, the pump is going to a diesel injection tech. Simple as. No garage deals with stuff like that. It really doesnt matter what the pump came off. He will instantly recognise it, and refer to the number on it for the settings and tolerances, etc, fix it and hand your mechanic back a working pump. He need not know its on a crazy conversion. Mechanic bolts it on, times it up, and you're away, without a laptop in sight.

If I ever breakdown abroad with a pump problem, my thoughts will be "thank fuck I've got a simple mechanical unit", not "bugger, wish my installation was laced with electronics to make this more specialised, complicated and expensive".

As a case in point, didn't the guys who took their syncros to morroco, have mtdi pumps?? And didn't they do this for absolute reliability?

Sorry for the big arse post, but I didn't go mtdi for fun, I did it for 2 key reasons, and one of those was to achieve out and out reliability, for travelling abroad with confidence and minimum hassle, so I feel I have to argue the case.

much love, MM


-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: russel at syncronutz
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 12:30
I have built and used may of bothe setups. mTDI is good but definetly not as refined as electronic. I use mosty mTDI's because with syncros water in the electronics is always a concern but have had 2 elecronic syncros in the past with no hasles at all.
The electronic setup in the cars is very very reliable and if fitted to a van correctly is the same.
As a DIY setup in the drive a mTDI is definetly the easiest way.
On a 2WD electronic all the way.
All these comment i have made apply to using a 110bhp wouldnt bother with the electronics on a 90bhp.
Russel


Posted By: ..lee..
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 12:31
mm i`d tend to side with you with regards to reliability and looks like i`m going tdi soon so these discussions are vital reading for me.
 
are the mtdi pumps a compramise in any other department ie power reliability smoke. i`m thinking the tdi was a big step up in std form over the aaz and its partly down to the electrics so what was vw`s thinking when they could have run a mtdi.
 
cheers lee.


Posted By: ..lee..
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 12:40
whats the differance with the 110`s and 90`s is it just electronics and can a 90 be chipped to a 110 easilly.


Posted By: monkey magic
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 14:25
For the record I will agree that electronic setups done properly will be VERY reliable. I am spliting hairs above, but would still prefer to breakdown with a mech unit than elec, for the reasons I stated above.

Originally posted by ..lee.. ..lee.. wrote:

so what was vw`s thinking when they could have run a mtdi.

 cheers lee.


edit: the key difference between AAZ and 1z/ahu etc is that the TDIs are direct injection, this is where the benefits came from, and having a mech pump doesnt change this. Discovering that I could run a tdi with a mech pump made me very quickly give up on the idea of doing an AAZ conversion, instead going AHU based mTDI route.


they had to shoot, as ever, for better efficiency and ever tightening emmisions standards, which is easier and cheaper to achieve with electronic control. For reference, VW had to drop PD TDI technology and finally buy into common rail, as they hit a wall with PD on emmisions. Ironic, as PD can be EXTREMELY reliable, and common rail is known for not lasting very long without issues.

Downsides of mTDI:

An mtdi will always be louder, due to lack of refinement in control over fuelling. It is also fair to say that, with a built in immobiliser a leccy TDI it will be more secure out of the box.

Main set back with mtdi is cost. If you want a reliable pump that works well, you need to wait and see how much Baxter is going to offer them for. Other realistic option is to get Giles in Canada to build you one. Expensive, but not unreasonable considering you get a 'better than new' pump at whatever level of tuning/smoke/power you want. In comparison, chipping tdi's is never cheap, and few can guarantee no smoke and a happy engine, etc.

If I wanted to dick around with ECU based units, I wouldn't touch 1Z's, AHU etc, I would save up and go PD TDI 150...


-------------
mTDI Syncro


Posted By: Baxter
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 20:29
Most of the above seconded.
 
The mTDI pump we have used on Andrews still has it's aprt numbers on, if it breaks it can get fixed at any Diesel specialist, apart from the throttle levers, the bracketry, and a couple of simple internal mods it's a stock pump.
Even if the Diesel place rebuilt it by the book it would still perform.
If your going to put a 1Z in, mTDI, but if it was a AFN then electronic.
 
Your never going to get as an efficient control over one of these engines as you are with the EDC pump, never going to be as quiet, as smoke free or as economical but you won't be far behind.
 
Most of the time people put an engine in through necessity, TDIs are plentiful, and now, with mTDI they don't have to cost a fortune.
 
I've not done enough to just sell someone a pump and for it to work, really we should take Andrews pump back off and get it on the test bench and reverse engineer a test plan for it, so then it can be easily replicated in the future, only then would I sell one on.
I feel thats why the imported off the shelf pumps are so expensive, because all this messing about has been done, and when they are sold they have been -re set up on the bench ready for you to fit, or at least i would hope so.
Andrews pump is overkill I feel, it works but it is capable of serious power, like silly amounts, we have had to wind the fuel off considerably and do a fair bit of trial and error testing to get the timing/LDA and fuel screw set so that we have a reasonable amount of power, little if any smoke and more importantly EGT's that are condusive of longevity.
I will do them for others, but like I said I want to fit the engine, I want to fit the charge cooler, it much have boost and EGT gauges and I want a day to mess about with it to get it right.


Posted By: Baxter
Date Posted: 15 Nov 09 at 20:30
Cost? about a grand I reckon, for the pump alone and the rake of other bits you have to buy.


Posted By: Beelzibus
Date Posted: 01 Dec 09 at 22:54
I have for sale a 1Z pump, complete harness, ECU, transponder, Ignition barrel and throttle pedal potentiometer. If anyone is interested.



Posted By: rolo
Date Posted: 02 Dec 09 at 06:26
"An mtdi will always be louder, due to lack of refinement in control over fuelling."                        Part of my program of messing, and due to bad weather, has left the test bed caddy and its aef with a disco pump and tdi turbo (and 130 injectors) and via a straight thru.  Engine and exhaust are deafening.  Is this due to lack of refinenent? 

-------------
the last one


Posted By: iow
Date Posted: 19 Jun 10 at 19:46
OK I have been reading all your post's and am well lost LOL. I have fitted a TDI engine to my boat on a OMC leg I went down this road thinking it is easy to replace the engine as a common used engine.
I got the engine out of a 1.9TDI Golf complete with wireing and ECU the engine run's noproblem at all and has been in the boat for over a year with no water problems at all.
But I do have a problem getting any power out of it I have been trying to get into the ECU via Lap top and a KWP2000 chip tunning tool but keep hitting a wall it see's the ECU but will not read it ???
Has any one got any idea's ?? I think I have fallen into a bit of a trap as the pump did not come with the engine it was from another car at the time did not think it made a diffrence but after reading your post's it seems you can not just swap pump's is this right ???
 
Any help would be very welcome


-------------
There must be a better way


Posted By: famous phil
Date Posted: 20 Jun 10 at 11:56
Originally posted by iow iow wrote:

But I do have a problem getting any power out of it I have been trying to get into the ECU via Lap top and a KWP2000 chip tunning tool but keep hitting a wall it see's the ECU but will not read it ???

Has any one got any idea's ?? I think I have fallen into a bit of a trap as the pump did not come with the engine it was from another car at the time did not think it made a diffrence but after reading your post's it seems you can not just swap pump's is this right ???

 

Any help would be very welcome



Hi, I'd have thought if you could find a forklift truck breaker you might be able to use an ECU from one that uses the TDi engine , would think it would be similar to the one fitted when the TDi engines are fitted into boats+industrial applications .

As for break downs due to pump failure a lot of the time its just down to failure of the internal lift pump which is a cheap part to replace and not many variations ,

What a lot of people overlook and don't understand with the mechanically operated pumps , look at the ro-ver 25/disco 300 auto/je-ep/ to name a few- say for instance ( due to emissions ) on the 1/8/97 at twelve pm the production line changed pumps to ECU control ,
Now if you have one of the above vehicles that was built the morning of 1/8/97 and the engine fails you can replace the engine with one built on the afternoon ( identical barring some sensors ) and use the pump from the failed engine ( even though there's a minority of folk that think you should not )

some people say vw didn't build a tdi with a mechanical pump and then change to ECU controlled- but other manufacturers did   

-------------
Prototype automotive engineering design and development


Posted By: iow
Date Posted: 20 Jun 10 at 12:41
I have been reading the book it tells me if ECU is taken out of line it goes back to default setting ??
 
I have no problem getting hold of another ECU for the engine seems to be loads about over here don't think there is anything wrong with the one I have but it is just so down on power .
 
It needs setting up like feul turning up to get more out of it being in a boat emissions don't come into it well only if wind is behind me .
Has any one had any luck with chip tunning via lap top ? As I said I can read the ECU number's and model ect but can not get into the programing side to turn feul up also running in a boat it run's cooler than a car. 


-------------
There must be a better way


Posted By: cambssandgravel
Date Posted: 16 May 20 at 23:34
Hi I have done this it all runs started and well , once I wound out max fuel screw it would turn off normally now I have good idle and free revving is ok But gutless to drive I have set timing to 23 dbtdc I have moved it to 28 now yet to try on road but wondered what timing settings you recommend. I think I still need more advance coz tinny bit of white smoke. Any help to save time much appreciated.  

-------------
Playing with Vdub Diesels since nineteennintythree


Posted By: James Golding
Date Posted: 08 Dec 20 at 00:12
I currently have an AAZ engine with a JX fuel pump. I have a spare Land Rover 200 tdi fuel pump spare; would this be a decent upgrade to do? Would it be a simple swap or would it require some modification?


Posted By: Zed.
Date Posted: 12 Dec 20 at 22:13
Originally posted by James Golding James Golding wrote:

I currently have an AAZ engine with a JX fuel pump. I have a spare Land Rover 200 tdi fuel pump spare; would this be a decent upgrade to do? Would it be a simple swap or would it require some modification?

the AAZ is an 'IDI' (indirect injection) engine, the IDI pump & injectors run at lower pressure than those used in tdi engines.

^^ the reverse of having a tdi pump on an 'IDI' engine.

Rich.


-------------
Layabout, Bodger, jack of all trades (except housework)



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net